$590.00 fine yesterday for not enough license

[GaryOwen]

Edit - Sorry, See that Harvey explained it before I got my question posted - guess I need to work on my typing skills.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



I still fail to see how you can legally pull a 10k trailer with a 26k truck with a Class C. Again, per NCDOT,



Class C: Required to operate any single vehicle that is not carrying hazardous material in quantities required to be placarded or is designed to carry no more than 15 passengers including the driver with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds; or any vehicle towing a vehicle which has a combined GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds operated by driver at least eighteen years old. Most drivers need only a Regular C license to operate personal automobiles and small trucks.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



As noted above, a single vehicle less than 26,001 can be operated with a Class C, OR any vehicle towing a vehicle (such as rental truck w/trailer) of less than COMBINED GVWR of 26,001. Please explain how I am wrong on this.

 

[jgillott]

Sorry, your friend is correct, you are mistaken. He CAN legally tow a 14,000# trailer with a 8800# pickup with a Class C driver's license because the rated and/or gross weight is less than 26,000#.

Again, you caught a mistake in clarity on my part... . thanks. The point that I was trying to make was, the pin weight of that trailer puts his truck well over it's 8800 # GVWR. He thinks, that as long as he doesn't exceed the 26,000 # combination, he is OK.



On edit, Here is a copy of regulations from the PA DOT site just to see our specific wording.



CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds).

CLASS B (minimum age 18): Required to operate any single vehicle rated in excess of 26,000 pounds. Example: Motor homes rated at 26,001 pounds or more.

CLASS C (minimum age 16): A Class C driver's license will be issued to persons 16 years of age or older, who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate any vehicles, except those requiring a Class M qualification, and who do not meet the definitions of Class A or Class B. Any firefighter or member of a rescue or emergency squad who is the holder of a Class C driver's license and who has a certificate of authorization from a fire chief or head of the rescue or emergency squad will be authorized to operate any fire or emergency vehicle registered to that fire department, rescue or emergency squad or municipality. The holder of a Class C driver's license is also authorized to drive a motorized pedalcycle (a motor-driven cycle) or a three-wheeled motorcycle equipped with an enclosed cab, but not a motorcycle.

CLASS M (minimum age 16): A Class M driver's license will be issued to those persons 16 years of age or older who have demonstrated their ability to operate a motorcycle or motor-driven cycle. If a person is qualified to operate only a motorcycle or motor-driven cycle, he/she will be issued a Class M driver's license. If your motorcycle is less than 50 CCs, an “8” restriction will appear on your driver's license. This restriction prohibits you from operating a motorcycle 50 CCs or larger.

 

[Scrappy]

There are literally dozens of guys that pull their tractors and/or large loads of hay in my area that own 14,000+ GVWR trailers. I can't understand, for as many that are on the road here, how they continue to get away with it.



One guy here that I argue with all the time pulls a 14,000 GVWR trailer with 2 pulling tractors on it with his 8800# GVWR 1998 Ram 2500. He truly thinks that he is legal in the state of PA because the #'s don't add up to 26,000.

Sorry, your friend is correct, you are mistaken. He CAN legally tow a 14,000# trailer with a 8800# pickup with a Class C driver's license because the rated and/or gross weight is less than 26,000#.

Correct me if I am wrong but he is NOT legal based on the fact that by the law posted above the trailer weighs in excess of 10K# even though he is under 26K gross.

you have to meet ALL conditions to be legal.



what I don't understand when you register a trailer, the tag is based on GVWR also so why must the truck tag cover the weight of both? if you are under the trucks tagged weight rating and GCWR and the trailer is also under your trailer's tagged weight and GVWR it should be legal!

Right now my truck has a 4ton tag on it and by this I can not even tow my single place jetski trailer even though the truck is rated @ 20K. GCWR!

 

[steved]

CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds).

I read this as anything over 10k towed is required to have a Class A... there is nothing in the C or B that states otherwise...

Now when I went after my CDL, it was anything towed over 10k and the GCVW was over 26k. The one guy working for us used a 20-ft stake body while towing our 16k compressor... the combination weighed around 30k. And again, CDL is a different animal from the Class.

I really never worried about it, since I have a Class A and knew I would never exceed those limits once I quit drilling.

 

[jgillott]

Correct me if I am wrong but he is NOT legal based on the fact that by the law posted above the trailer weighs in excess of 10K# even though he is under 26K gross.

you have to meet ALL conditions to be legal.



what I don't understand when you register a trailer, the tag is based on GVWR also so why must the truck tag cover the weight of both? if you are under the trucks tagged weight rating and GCWR and the trailer is also under your trailer's tagged weight and GVWR it should be legal!

Right now my truck has a 4ton tag on it and by this I can not even tow my single place jetski trailer even though the truck is rated @ 20K. GCWR!

I also always interpreted the law to read that way also, but I have had it explained to me differently many times. The point that I was trying to make was, and I'm not being as clear in my words tonight for some reason, is that you can not exceed the registered GVWR in either part of your combination and be considered legal.

 

[jgillott]

I read this as anything over 10k towed is required to have a Class A... there is nothing in the C or B that states otherwise...



Now when I went after my CDL, it was anything towed over 10k and the GCVW was over 26k. The one guy working for us used a 20-ft stake body while towing our 16k compressor... the combination weighed around 30k. And again, CDL is a different animal from the Class.



I really never worried about it, since I have a Class A and knew I would never exceed those limits once I quit drilling.

Like you, I always read it to mean nothing over 10K in tow for a class C. It wasn't until recent years that I've been told differently. Just for kicks, I just got out my wife's PA class C license and it does clearly state "Single/Combination <26,000".



Again, I never really worried about it personally since it didn't apply in my case. Also, what year did you get your Class A in PA? It seems to me that I can remember PA listing all the classes on the back of the old ones defining each class and clearly showing somwhere about tow +/- 10K but I can remember how each one is shown. I know I've kept all of my old ones, but I can't seem to find them right now.

 

[brods]

.....
what I don't understand when you register a trailer, the tag is based on GVWR also so why must the truck tag cover the weight of both? if you are under the trucks tagged weight rating and GCWR and the trailer is also under your trailer's tagged weight and GVWR it should be legal!
Right now my truck has a 4ton tag on it and by this I can not even tow my single place jetski trailer even though the truck is rated @ 20K. GCWR!

Commercial licence plates, thats how. In MI if you have commercial plates you can declare your GVW. That GVW covers your truck and anything you are carrying and or towing. It is basically a tax. If you declare low to save money on the registration it can come back to bite you as it did to the OP.

Mi does not require any personal use pickups to have commercial plates like some states do. For weight penalties I assume and hope that my non-commercial plated pickup's max CGVW is the truck GVWR plus the trailers GVWR.


The fed CDL is confusing, but if you read the wording carefully, it appears if you are non-commercial and stay below 26,001 in any combination you do not need a CDL at all (as long as non hazardous, yada yada).

 

[steved]

Like you, I always read it to mean nothing over 10K in tow for a class C. It wasn't until recent years that I've been told differently. Just for kicks, I just got out my wife's PA class C license and it does clearly state "Single/Combination <26,000".



Again, I never really worried about it personally since it didn't apply in my case. Also, what year did you get your Class A in PA? It seems to me that I can remember PA listing all the classes on the back of the old ones defining each class and clearly showing somwhere about tow +/- 10K but I can remember how each one is shown. I know I've kept all of my old ones, but I can't seem to find them right now.

I got my latest CDL in 98, the new PA license only list your approved class and endorsements/restrictions. That was the first place I looked tonight, my previous license listed them all. I almost called the local PD to see what they said, but I'm not really THAT interested...



I know they will give you issues towing with a pickup in PA. It might be because they "looked" construction-like, and not POV?? I see pickups (both loaded and towing) pulled over by the state DOT at Exit 298 on the turnpike all the time (they really like picking on the trash-trucks heading to the landfill) although they have never bothered me. They really like the race car trailers because those have sponsors, and therefore are for-hire and commercial!

 

[GaryOwen]

Correct me if I am wrong but he is NOT legal based on the fact that by the law posted above the trailer weighs in excess of 10K# even though he is under 26K gross.

you have to meet ALL conditions to be legal.

As per PA regs and NC regs posted earlier, a Class A is ONLY required when the CGVWR is above 26k AND the trailer is over 10k. If you are less than 26k, you fall under class C. Doesn't matter what the trailer weighs as long as the GVWR of the truck and the GVWR of the trailer, when added together, are under 26k.

 

[jgillott]

I got my latest CDL in 98, the new PA license only list your approved class and endorsements/restrictions. That was the first place I looked tonight, my previous license listed them all. I almost called the local PD to see what they said, but I'm not really THAT interested...



I know they will give you issues towing with a pickup in PA. It might be because they "looked" construction-like, and not POV?? I see pickups (both loaded and towing) pulled over by the state DOT at Exit 298 on the turnpike all the time (they really like picking on the trash-trucks heading to the landfill) although they have never bothered me. They really like the race car trailers because those have sponsors, and therefore are for-hire and commercial!

I first got mine in December of '93. I know for sure that those had all the listings on the back, but again, I have no Idea where they are at this point.



I've been seeing it a lot here in the New Stanton area. They will get you at as you get on I-70 west.

 

[steved]

Under 26k, but within your GVWs...



And as we've seen here, it varies state to state.

 

[Pavemen]

so what was the OP's "tag" weight?

Here in CA, think that the tag weight is based on MFG GVWR, so my registration allows me up to 10,500lb total weight from both axles.

 

[CUMMINZ]

Sorry, your friend is correct, you are mistaken. He CAN legally tow a 14,000# trailer with a 8800# pickup with a Class C driver's license because the rated and/or gross weight is less than 26,000#. [/QUOTE]



Harvey, This is not the case in NC. The HP told me today that if you have trailer with GVW of 10,001#s and above you will need class A.

 

[HBarlow]

... ... ... ..... The point that I was trying to make was, the pin weight of that trailer puts his truck well over it's 8800 # GVWR. He thinks, that as long as he doesn't exceed the 26,000 # combination, he is OK.

You are correct. I overlooked the kingpin weight on the rear axle of a "mini-truck. " His rear axle and his truck's GVWR would probably be exceeded when hauling a loaded trailer with GVWR of 14,000#. DOT would bust him on truck GVWR and RAWR.

 

[HBarlow]

Under 26k, but within your GVWs...

And as we've seen here, it varies state to state.

Not really. The only thing that varies state to state is some of the driver license requirements intra-state. All the weight issues and the CDL issues ae based on and generally quote federal DOT rules.

 

[steved]

Harvey, This is not the case in NC. The HP told me today that if you have trailer with GVW of 10,001#s and above you will need class A.

Just for giggles, it might be worth your time to call another barracks and inquire into whether that particular HP officer was either having a bad day, or interpreting the law as he saw fit at that point in time. See if you get a different answer... make sure you take the officer's name (date and time of the calls with details of the conversation) in case it needs to go to court.



Just a thought...

 

[steved]

Not really. The only thing that varies state to state is some of the driver license requirements intra-state. All the weight issues and the CDL issues ae based on and generally quote federal DOT rules.

Exactly... how YOUR state lays down the law is what counts...comparing PA to NC is apples to oranges. While they are similar, they are still slightly different.

 

[HBarlow]

Sorry, your friend is correct, you are mistaken. He CAN legally tow a 14,000# trailer with a 8800# pickup with a Class C driver's license because the rated and/or gross weight is less than 26,000#. [/QUOTE]

Harvey, This is not the case in NC. The HP told me today that if you have trailer with GVW of 10,001#s and above you will need class A.

Cumminz,

I'm sorry but either the trooper or you misunderstood. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "class A. " Some states have class A through C commercial licenses and, also, class A through C ordinary driver licenses.

A CDL is required when gross combination weight exceeds 26,000 but not if your trailer exceeds 10k but the combination weight is 26k or under.

Don't take my word for it because I won't be the guy who pays a ticket. Go to your driver's licensing office and pick up a copy of your state's commercial driver's license booklet (free) and read it yourself.

Actually, another member posted it in an earlier post unless I'm confusing it with another state. What you are (mis)quoting is actually the federal DOT regulations.

 

[HBarlow]

Edit - Sorry, See that Harvey explained it before I got my question posted - guess I need to work on my typing skills.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I still fail to see how you can legally pull a 10k trailer with a 26k truck with a Class C. Again, per NCDOT,

Class C: Required to operate any single vehicle that is not carrying hazardous material in quantities required to be placarded or is designed to carry no more than 15 passengers including the driver with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds; or any vehicle towing a vehicle which has a combined GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds operated by driver at least eighteen years old. Most drivers need only a Regular C license to operate personal automobiles and small trucks.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As noted above, a single vehicle less than 26,001 can be operated with a Class C, OR any vehicle towing a vehicle (such as rental truck w/trailer) of less than COMBINED GVWR of 26,001. Please explain how I am wrong on this.

Gary,

You are NOT wrong. You are correctly interpreting the statute. The distinction you spelled out is the point that several others are missing.

 

[steved]

The simple fact is this:

Just because you own a pickup doesn't make you exempt from the scrutiny of DOT... and its only going to get worse.