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AC evaporator and (probe)

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Update from Dodge on the temperature sensor PN 5140727AA. Unfortunately, they left us high and dry. I'm a little sore on this one due to the piss-poor email response I received this morning stating to hit salvage yards. I'll have to spec it out and design a sensor harness assy from scratch, source the components, build a test harness and test it to ensure it works properly with the control circuit by matching the curve and control limits that Dodge used. I'll start making phone calls this morning and get the ball rolling.

CM
 
Update from Dodge on the temperature sensor PN 5140727AA. Unfortunately, they left us high and dry. I'm a little sore on this one due to the piss-poor email response I received this morning stating to hit salvage yards. I'll have to spec it out and design a sensor harness assy from scratch, source the components, build a test harness and test it to ensure it works properly with the control circuit by matching the curve and control limits that Dodge used. I'll start making phone calls this morning and get the ball rolling.

CM
I did find a couple of junkyard Evap cores on eBay with sensor in place, however we gambled that my sensor was ok and was definitely in the wrong position on the core. So we installed new core with old sensor in updated location. So far my AC isn't getting as cold as it was, but it's also not freezing and handling 98 degree GA days just fine last week for 200+ miles and 4 days of driving around. Thank you for the assistance! What's amazing is Dodge can still get me the Laramie upper dash spoiler over tweeters that had minor surface crack for $263 and was a special color Toupe for 2-3 years only but can't provide an oem evap sensor that was used in 4 years of production. oy!
 
Update from Dodge on the temperature sensor PN 5140727AA. Unfortunately, they left us high and dry. ...
CM

Been looking for this part myself. Was hoping you got the resistance down and we could find a thermistor that had the correct Ohm values as the temps changed. Do let us know if you have made any progress here.
I'm hesitant to try the superceded parts as they don't look the same. Supersession(s): 05073970AB; 68004227AA; 68004229AA;
Now I just happened to stumble across these on ebay.

88625-02120 toyota thermistor
Look at the pics of the connector and the thermo end.
Here is one on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/p/25018970672
Damn thing looks the same.
I'm going to order one and see how it performs.

Currently my thermistor is on the outside of the box because when its on the inside it is reading faulty causing the ac clutch to kick on/off every few seconds.
BUT isn't the dang thing supposed to be on the cold evaporator to function correctly?? Thermistor definitely has to be bad. I have read through the manual and there are no spec Ohm values based on temp high or low ranges. (super aggravated).

I'll report back on how the toyota one does.
 
Lorenzo, I have a late, 5.9, 2007 and my thermistor clips into the air stream on top of the A/C duct, just above the evaporator, and not the coil like you show. Need to find out what the resistance is on a working trucks A/C, high and low temps. Then check the Toyota part resistance. The thermistor itself on your probe should have some markings showing its value. On charts I looked up, it seems that the higher the temperature, the lower the resistance. The charts also showed voltage so maybe the thermistor changes the amount of voltage too???
 
Ah ha.. I was looking for this and lost track of which site this was until someone hit the feed and I received a notification. Sorry for not following up on this one.

Please look on Page 2.

I listed out both ambient and at refrigerant level along with a test procedure. I really need to finish this up. I got sidetracked with the work engineering gigs and lost track of this entire project here - my overhaul project on my Dodge Lodge is still torn down to sheet metal so, now that I'm back for a bit, I will pick this back up and source a thermistor from Mouser for this application if possible. We'll have to see what they've got. We know what the mechanical envelope is. I measured that and provided the dims on that last time on Page 2 along with placement on x, and y, on the Evap Core. The manual was incorrect in placement.

The reference signal on these (per manual and OEM test procedure) was 5V if memory serves me correct.

Component Type =NTC type thermistor.

The parameters involved in sourcing thermistors; material type, junction type, housing type, type of thermistor itself (the actual component itself housed inside the mechanical envelope) and to whether or not voltage rises or falls, reference signal, and most importantly, scale. That's the aspect that, without a controlled temperature chamber or, calibrated equipment used in testing these, it can be difficult to get the scale correct but, what I can do, is map it via another method. I would also like to verify upper and lower temperature limits. This is another parameter in sourcing these components.

I'll be back with an update.

CM
 
NOTES SECTION:

This particular thermistor assy (thermistor package, w leads, plus Molex connector) has some PN history associated with it that I would like to document herein this thread for anyone coming into this issue.

OEM PN 05140727 is obsolete as was confirmed via Mopar to me directly via email without a replacement PN. Mopar felt there was no demand and killed it instead of supporting it in their system thus the reason no one is making replacement PNs for it. Mopar referred me to salvage yards as a last resort.

That is the history on the this A/C probe for the most part and to why it was not supported going forward thus leaving guys owning certain models left out to dry.

Some of the following PNs are still live on certain websites. For example: 68004227AA is can be found here: https://mopar.worldoemparts.com/oem-parts/mopar-air-conditioning-probe-68004227AA HOWEVER, please verify with suppliers what they've got on hand via phone. There's a few sites listing these as available / in stock and, while they may even take your money-like Mopar Giants does on parts, often times, they don't even have the item in stock or, as I had found, were obsolete thus, you never receive the item or a refund. So, do be cautious for, most of these PNs are presumed to be dead per OEM Mopar. However, there is always a slight chance of old stock or, someone else picking up the contract and making them under an old OEM PN. (knock-offs / China)

Mopar World allowed me to add it to the cart and proceeds to the sale / checkout, I don't trust that. Digi-Key and Mopar Giants and one other massive auto parts distributor pulls that **** all the time. DGs inventory shows "ready to ship immediately" - until you buy it. Then the status gets updated to "backorder status" after they've taken your money. I hate Digi-Key for that very reason along with those suppliers mentioned above.

History on this one:

Some sites list 6 PNs associated with this particular assy. t
The PNs are listed as follows:

  1. 05140727AA
  2. 05073970AB (NOTE: LISTED ON SOME SITES AS AVAILABLE DESPITE BEING DISCONTINUED / OBSOLETE BY MOPAR)
  3. 68004227AA
  4. 68004229AA
  5. -5140727AA
  6. -5073970AB (NOTE: PN IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE OEM EVAP CORE BUT ODDLY REFERENCED ON SOME SITES AS TEMP ASSY PROBE IN REDIRECTING TO EVAP CORE. FYI
 
While working on an alternate means to resolving this issue on the side, I contacted the above mentioned company (Mopar World) and asked them to email me about PN 68004227AA. As soon as I hear something, an update with the outcome on that PN and its availability will be provided. They do have a phone number: 440-232-4950. They're out of Ohio on Broadway Ave.

Meanwhile, working options on my end for possible replacement options - make or buy parts.
CM
 
I received a prompt email from Mopar World this morning with regards to PN 68004227AA.
"Unfortunately that part is discontinued." is what the status is on that one.
But, in looking into options, I believe there's alternate options to make part vs. buy something off the shelf.

Option 1 involves retrofitting the existing harness with a new thermistor.
Option 2 involves building an entirely new harness.

Option 1 is the least path of resistance so, the intent is to simply modify that harness.
I've already gone through a few TDS (Technical Data Sheets) of some components designed for the end-use being HVAC automotive applications on Saturday.

My intent is to order the components today and build a complete harness, test a few design options first before pulling the trigger just to ensure proper function. The timeline depends on suppliers but, should the timeline not work for those who's rigs are down and not working and need to be put back online ASAP, I can provide some PNs and instructions.

CM
 
@Motorhead bingo! and I'm do just that when I get a chance.
I was at the junkyard this weekend for a different vehicle and decided to go venture over to the '06 1500 and yanked the thermister out behind the dash.
It looks the daggon same! Pretty sure its same part # too.

Now the Yota one arrived and it is a bit shorter and the pins are different but could splice in the dodge connector no issues.

When I get a chance, I'm going to take my current one out, the junkyard 1500 and the yota one. Boil some water and see what happens with the resistance.

Here are some pics just for comparison.

Thanks @Christopher McKenna for your hard work on this too!
IMG_1871.jpg
IMG_1947.jpg
IMG_1948.jpg
IMG_1949.jpg
 
That thermistor that you've got - isn't the correct length for starters. The probe length is crucial for proper function.

The other thing is, not to boil water. Skip that - please.

What you'll want to do is simply achieve ambient temperature of 25C / 77F.

Process should be like this:

No 1. SET ROOM TEMP TO AMBIENT 25C.

No 2. VERIFY ROOM TEMP VIA THERMOCOUPLES AND DMM.

No 3. ATTACH THERMOCOUPLE TO PROBE NEAR THE BASE OF THERMISTOR OFF DMM NO 1. NOTE: ADJUST AMB ROOM TEMP UNTIL THE TEMPERATURE OF THE PROBE READS 25C. THIS IS CRITICAL TO OBTAINING ACCURACY.

No 4. BACKPROBE THERMISTOR CONNECTOR VIA DMM 2

No 5. MEASURE OHMS AT AMB TEMP.

REPORT BACK THE OHMS AT AMB TEST.

THE NEXT TEST WILL BE TO VERIFY NTC OR PTC TYPE THERMISTOR.

I'm still on this and have parts on order. FYI.
 
Here's the thing with thermistors - this was mentioned but, as a refresher there's quite a few parameters involved in choosing the proper device / component.

Even though probe type of thermistors appear the same by looks, often times, the scales are way off and will not match thus, creating a problem at the circuit level.

The control system ties into the HVAC HAA / HDA controller - and the ECM as well. The circuit has to match thermistor specifications along with MIN and MAX T-ranges for a given thermistor. Certain thermistors may be damaged inadvertently when subjected to temperatures outside their operating range.

Since we have no TDS for this thermistor, we don't know its MAX T-limit. If the upper range is exceeded, it will either do one or two things:

1. Throw its calibration out of tolerance

2. Induce latent or catastrophic failure.

In this particular application, the controller is monitoring lower temperatures to prevent ice-up conditions inside the EVAP Core. This is why probe length is 1.125 inches. It penetrates ~50% of the depth of EVAP Core which sports a 3.00-in depth. That is where we want to take a reading. This will ensure proper functioning system. The 1.125-in depth is critical to proper temperature monitoring along with probe diameter of 0.138-in. This is to ensure proper friction fit and surface contact inside EVAP Core.

Thermistors have a designated reference signal applied as well and, in this case, it's 5V. By guessing and choosing a thermistor that looks similar and even sports closely matching Ohm readings, all bets are off as to proper function and, in some circuits, could inadvertently induce damage at the controller or worse-case scenario: it would simply relay incorrect readings to control system thus, operating the HVAC system out of range thus damaging the entire HVAC system. This type of failure can be very costly should EVAP Core blow and contaminate the entire system and ultimately induce catastrophic failure at HVAC system components thus warranting replacement of the the EVAP core, Accumulator, A/C Condenser, A/C switch, Compressor and HVAC lines. To the controller, its eyes and ears are the thermistor so, it's really important to get one that closely matches OEM to ensure proper function, reliability and safety.

Some circuits employ a PTC circuit while others employ a NTC circuit designs while certain foreign countries sport an entirely different scale that matches their control circuits. I found this to be true with KIA HVAC thermistors. OEMs tend to use different circuits and component values vs. standard circuit designs. While HVAC thermistors do often employ a standard EVT range of -40 to +125C, some do not. Some are focused on a much lower range for, all they want to accurately measure is the lower temperature registers inside the CORE to prevent freeze-over conditions.

In this particular application this is a failsafe vs. cabin monitor application. This sensors primary function is centered around preventing catastrophic failure at the EVAP core component by monitoring the temperature 50% inside the core. That's its primary function. It then feeds into the circuit that cuts the A/C compressor voltage to disengage the A/C clutch. Only when the temp comes back up does controller engage the A/C clutch to compressor. If memory serves me correct, this thermistor is tied to the ECM circuit vs. HVAC control circuit. I've have to delve into schematics again but, I believe the switching <ON/OFF> is done at ECM level.

While there certainly is a possibility for an off-the-shelf item for another application could closely match OEM for this application, it's somewhat of a risk to simply plug & play. This is my recommendation - avoid doing that.
 
Wed AM update status:

Six components are on order from various OEMs
Schematics, HAA wire harness, Dashboard Harness, connector(s) mapping and pinout (GND, B+ PIN 1) verified.
DASH AND HAA Harnesses removed from vehicle.
Controller removed from vehicle and on bench
HAA ASSY removed from vehicle
CORE removed from HAA ASSY.
T-Probe ASSY removed from core.
Parameters identified last year: R25, mechanical dims, Type = NTC, R0, R100, REF SIG.
Parameters identified this year: TERM, PWR RATING, MAX PWR DISS EST @50% SPEC.
Testing conducted last year: THERMAL CYCLE (AMB TO LO)
Profiling, mapping and plotting is still necessary in attempt to match OEM Profile.
CM
 
Just a question for you guys. Has anyone ordered the later thermistor assembly, like my 2007, 5.9 uses and try it? My truck was built December 18, 2006. My thermistor comes in from the outside, top of the HVAC case and is removable without any HVAC disassembly. Only thing I need to take out is the glove box. I wonder if the thermistor is the same value? With the early being NLA, I wonder if Dodge didn't supersede to the other type?
I removed mine and hooked it up outside of the HVAC case to see how cold the A/C would get down to at the center vent. With it pulled, I got to 36* and lower out of the center vent. It never iced up but I live in a non humid area.
 
I was wondering the same thing as you along with wanting to inquire to someone with a later 2006-2007 model who has this configuration to present some photos. I myself want to see the assembly on that.

From the looks of things, I can tell one thing for certain based on the PN associated with that thermistor assy - that part, does not function in the same manner as the earlier 2003-2006 (early models) design. It's got what appears to be, another type of thermistor that measures air temperature vs via contact probe design which resides in the EVAP zone.

It was a better design for serviceability - hands down. With some modifications the older models can be modified for easier access along with adding in filtration pre blower.

But, yeah, if anyone has photos of the mounting position inside their HAA ASSY, I would appreciate seeing this. I've seen some manual photos here and there but, it would be nice to include them here as well.

Regards,
CM
 
QUICK UPDATE STATUS: Profiling OEM component: Lo Temp and Hi-Temp and AMB verified. Awaiting components - WIP: sourcing alternate components due to long lead times associated with certain components due to supplier issues. Will begin plotting and mapping OEM profile. Intent to acquire ALT parts in order to expedite test. Sourcing unloaded probe tube and thermal epoxy for end-use application as well as possible vendors making custom probes to determine cost out. This is part of process of determining make-part vs. bought part. It may be possible to have a vendor make the part to my drawings and specs thus, it would be an off-the-shelf item in the future for anyone to purchase. I'd have to work with them to see what type of arrangement would be possible so, that's something also being looked at.
 
QUICK UPDATE STATUS: Modeling of OEM component is complete. OEM Profile and B-value have been determined. Scratched orders on 12-plus week lead time components - shifting OEMs to support in-stock items. Still working with OEM supplier on the probe housing.

That's where things are at with this project.
CM
 
I haven't forgot this thread. Just you've been more helpful than I have been. This is awesome progress. Thank you.

You're absolutely correct on the toyota one but for $20 I didn't mind testing it.
I pulled the one out of the truck, compared to the junkyard one and the toyota one. Seems like the junkyard one is no better than the one I have.
The toyota one is totally as you described different set of values for their hvac systems and ecu. Unless of course its correct and both of mine are old garbage. :D

Here are the results. Room temperature 73°
resistance set to 20k on the ohm meter.

in-truck thermister values:
amb temp: 5.07
ice water: 13.05
tip in ice: 16.1

Junkyard thermister:
amb temp: 5.3
ice water: 13
tip in ice: 15.94

Toyota thermister:
amb temp: 1.57
ice water: 4.5
Tip in ice: 5.1

Be interested in seeing what values these were supposed to be at stock oem!
 
Hello and Happy Friday Lorenzo.

As a rule of thumb, when comparing thermistors, all one needs to know is its R25-value. This specified value is the prime indicator of what ya have. If the values are far apart like that, you know it needs to be sent back. However, I do understand it's not a great loss to test it.

Once you see a large delta like like that (5.07 vs. 1.57), it is known immediately that the scale isn't the same thus, no testing required really. However, one can test them in the bag via probing the connector through the sealed plastic bag.

This OEM component's setpoint is centered on 5K @ 25C (AMB). This is its R25 parameter value.

One of the other issues with choosing a thermistor is its B-parameter value. This affects the profile curve on the plotted graph of how the thermistor responds or rather, outputs, over the x and y axis. On the x-axis, one will find temperature. On the y-axis, one will find resistance.

Even if one finds a thermistor that outputs 5000 OHM @ 25C and meets that No 1 Prime Parameter Value as mentioned herein this particular post with regards to R25-value, one could be looking at some problems if the profile as well as other parameters aren't closely matched to OEM values.

By determining a minimum of two data points - (I use three) one can derive the missing parameter values that are needed to reverse engineer what the OEM designer chose for his or her circuit. Typically, one will want to know, in particular, the two data points at opposite ends of the range. This would be the lowest possible (MIN) measurement one can measure and conversely, the highest measurement one can measure (MAX).

Now, there's a warning here associated here that should be disclosed on what to avoid doing and that, is: exceeding its temperature rating thus incurring damage during test. Should one have an 85C or lower upper limit to which, is quite possible because, in auto HVAC, the upper temperature isn't where the design intent is centered around. Not in this case. They weren't concerned with cabin temp or temp of the air flowing out of the ducts during heat mode.

Engineers were concerned with preventing a catastrophic failure. This design is simply a thermostat failsafe design intent to prevent an ice-over condition from occurring at the EVAP core level thus why they chose a simplest design that was cheap to execute using a single sensor. Later models got more costly and started employing multiple sensors. In late 2006, Dodge changed the design to an air-flow sensor inside the HAA / HAD. They changed the thermistor type to an epoxy-based, bare air-flow sensor type. This is evident upon physical appearance. It is protected in an injection molded structure. It's the same type of component used in intake control systems just, sporting a different range of parameters (due to different applications).

We know the application is AUTO HVAC. One must first determine the component's upper limit and lower limit BEFORE testing to ensure its range isn't exceeded for, if exceeded, it will damage the component. Even if one had zero experience with electronic control systems, one can factor in logic and ask, what is the upper temperature (MAX) that the component may be subjected to and conversely, the lowest temperature it may be subjected to (MIN). We know that, in hot climates here in the US, upwards of 200F has been measured inside the cockpit and, in colder climates, -40 or colder has been noted. Knowing that, one can now, seek out a component that fits inside that window / range.

Typically, the range on thermistors for this type of application is -40 to 85C for these types of applications but, not always. Common ranges are -40 to 125C / -50 to 150C. That's the 101 standards but, again, depending on application and design intent, those ranges can swing widely depending on application intent. In order to figure out what Dodge Chrysler or, whomever they contracted to design the HVAC control system, one must test the OEM sensor to see what it does but, without damaging it.

In general, avoid placing or expose thermistors to liquids unless they're designed for that application. Typically a sealed bag is used to prevent intrusion. Probes which are potted inside metal probe housings are good for condensation but, not for immersion applications. If one were to subject this type of thermistor used in this HVAC application to extreme heat source such as a propane flame running at 1995C - immediate damage can occur within seconds. It's not designed for that type of application.

I'll be back in a separate post on those values that you kindly took the time to post to keep that separate from the Tech Info here.
 
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