Advertising Vs Reality

[Cummins Corvette]

I have been thinking about this for a few weeks, and I can't think of any possible problems with the ats lockup clutch. It is very similar to the clutch in my bike, as Clint said. I am still very skeptical of their claims of having a transmission continuously shift without coming out of lockup. The torque spike generated in that procedure would be extremely harsh, while the spike generated when a very tight tc shifts in fluid coupling wouldn't be nearly as harsh. I don't fully understand my transmission, but I have a pretty good idea of how it works. Shifting in lockup=bad/much shorter time to overhaul. I do wish that Bill's lockup clutch were strong enough to make my tc saver unnecessary though. My truck accelerates better at 3/4 throttle than at full with that thing unlocking the tcc at full throttle. The rpm is just too far past the best part of the torque curve.

 

[dramer]

Just some more Q&A

Quote: From Mark Kendrick

100% of the power could be transferred to the transmission and the transmission would run cooler and last longer. In newer diesels, a lockup clutch is used at highway speeds to improve efficiency to 100% during lockup



If we are going to get technical the ford transmission on the 7. 3 uses lockup as soon as 2nd gear factory this is not at highway speeds why is that? 2nd thought is: Dodge uses lockup factory in third gear and that’s also not at highway speeds why is that?



Just a Question? Testing is done on the holding ability’s of the converter from many means from engineering to hydraulic torque tests. Using the term MU mean anything.



Don

 

[RottnDogue]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Our TripleLok™ torque converter has twice the surface area of the leading competitor, yet will hold THREE times the torque.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



:--) :--) :--) :--) 4,000 ft lbs... . of Torque... ... . Wow... ...



Can this be tested? And how long will this hold?

 

[rrausch]

I just talked to Don at ATS today, before I logged on. I trust him. I'm going to go for the ATS. Current plans are to drive up to Denver toward the end of April and let him have at my 47RH.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by CAnderson

... I am still very skeptical of their claims of having a transmission continuously shift without coming out of lockup... .

A harsh, jarring shift would come from instantly releasing the current planetary gear and instantly applying the next. Remember, the only reason an auto trans works is because one planetary gear or another is held in place.



Get a sheet of paper. Draw a square wave and a sine wave.



The square wave has a harsh transition from on-to-off and vice-versa (note the square edges of the pulse). The sine wave has a smooth transition from on-to-off and vice-versa (note the smooth edged of the wave).





Now, smooth off the square edges of the square wave with, in effect, portions of high-frequency sine waves. You will now have a smooth, but rapid, change from on-to-off, and vice versa.



I would expect this is how ATS are achieving smooth shifts without jarring the trans. I haven't deduced the actual mechanics of accomplishing this as yet.



So long as there are no *sudden* changes, things are less likely to break. It is akin to the diference between placing a bolt, head first, against a pane of glass, then tapping the bolt with either a rubber mallet or a steel hammer. The glass is much less likely to break when the bolt is tapped with the mallet, and much more likely to break when the bold is tapped with the hammer.



Another analogy? Loudspeakers being driven with a medium-power amp and a high-power amp. So long as the input voltage doesnot exceed the voice coil's capacity, the speaker will keep working, regardless of whether the input power is 50W, or 450W. Granted, at some point, say, 800W, the voltage exceeds the voice coil's insulation and the speaker flames out.



Properly designed, a transmission can shift under full power and not break, and not need to be made of super-special parts.





Now on to the other aspect of this thread.



Folks, let us keep this thread civilized. If you have questions, ask them. If you see factual errors, note them and ask that they be corrected.



Let's not get our panties in a bunch because a vendor is not yet willing, or ready, to divulge proprietary data. As is the case with many performance products, time will tell who is right and who is wrong. And there *is* room for multiple folks to be right. And let's remain calm when mistakes are made. We are only human; *all* of us will make mistakes sometimes.



We all get excited, and sometimes in our enthusiasm, mistakes are made. I hope we can be big enough to bring those mistakes quietly to the attention of the ones responsible, and big enough to acknowledge the error and correct it.



Let's keep it civil, folks. Spirited, yes. But not mean; there's no room for that here.



Remember, you can *always* go back and edit a post if you realize your words are inadvertantly harsh, or what you meant to say isn't quite reflected in the words you typed.



Happy discussions!

Fest3er

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Well I haven't been accused of anything in a day or two....

Was I the only one that noticed the FIRST reason for Bill's post was the CUSTOMER... .

"..... 1) I took a call yesterday from a guy that made me re-think my attitude of late when posting on this site. His question was, was I not partially responsible for his situation? While it was not my product he was having problems with, as he considered me to be one of the transmission experts in the field and I had nothing negative to say about the propaganda, the product must have been ok. Everybody knew it was not my style to keep silent. "



Product was SECOND

Everyone makes mistakes, lord know's I make my share, but how do you go wrong thinking of customer 1st????



I'm pretty sure Bill's check is good. Contenders should step up to the plate and in the end we all win.

Ok, I'm slipping into my thermonuclear suit now.....



Bob

 

[Dave MacArthur]

I for one think Bill is absolutely right for calling out a misrepresentation about his product. If you are passionate about what you do, and in business for yourself, you have to defend your work against this kind of thing. A lot of people would have just called their attorney and asked them to file for an injunction to shut down the offending web site/filed a lawsuit for damages/etc. It's refreshing to see someone use a public forum like this to set the record straight. I think we all know what any of our attorneys would say "whatever you do, don't start talking about this on that TDR site". I'm glad to see that ATS has offered to correct their web site if found to be in error. I hope they are sincere when they say that. Bill, would it be possible for you to tell us what the correct figure is? Or is it proprietary info? ATS, could you tell us where you got the figure for DTT's friction surface?



Thanks,



Dave.

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Dave MacArthur

I for one think Bill is absolutely right for calling out a misrepresentation about his product. If you are passionate about what you do, and in business for yourself, you have to defend your work against this kind of thing. A lot of people would have just called their attorney and asked them to file for an injunction to shut down the offending web site/filed a lawsuit for damages/etc. It's refreshing to see someone use a public forum like this to set the record straight. I think we all know what any of our attorneys would say "whatever you do, don't start talking about this on that TDR site". I'm glad to see that ATS has offered to correct their web site if found to be in error. I hope they are sincere when they say that. Bill, would it be possible for you to tell us what the correct figure is? Or is it proprietary info? ATS, could you tell us where you got the figure for DTT's friction surface?



Thanks,



Dave.

Politicians were thought to be the only people who make themselves look good by ripping down others.



I can say this: If it were my business, and my competitor had something wrong on his website about my product, my first instinct would have been to call him up and in a polite tone inform him that it was wrong. I would also have specs on my site to set the record straight.



This is grandstanding. I could never try this kind of stunt. I would be so embarrassed I would crawl in a hole and never show my face again.



Winners don't get mad about losers. The guy on top is rarely bothered by those down the ladder. The best don't worry about the rest. Need I go on?

 

[Bob Wagner]

Originally posted by Power Wagon







This is grandstanding. I could never try this kind of stunt. I would be so embarrassed I would crawl in a hole and never show my face again.

Need I go on?

Powerwagon, That was uncalled for. You of all people should know that. Come on... ... .

 

[Fred Swanson]

Talk is cheap. Just take the bet, or better yet show up in Vegas at MM02. This is a big enough event to draw a good crowd, to demonstrate your products, or prove a point.

There's no hiding the facts.



BTW: When were you going to update your site with correct info?

 

[Sled Puller]

This was posted about oil threads at one time, I think it is fitting for automatic threads also!!



Length AND obdurate dunderheadedness.



Not to mention excessive obstinacy and overzealous rhetorical profligracy...

 

[TxDieselKid]

Originally posted by Bob Wagner

Powerwagon, That was uncalled for. You of all people should know that. Come on... ... .

Bob,

Grandstanding is a type of advertising, where you post your best against everyone elses best with their name. Kinda a public showing for all the "folks in the grandstand".



PowerWagon was not insulting BillK. , at least I don't think he was, PW, am I right?



Andrew

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by TxDieselKid





Bob,

Grandstanding is a type of advertising, where you post your best against everyone elses best with their name. Kinda a public showing for all the "folks in the grandstand".



PowerWagon was not insulting BillK. , at least I don't think he was, PW, am I right?



Andrew

He can take it any way he wants.



Grandstanding has a definition, yes. You understand what it is, I see. I'm saying that if it were me, I could never try such a thing.



Tell me, if you ran some public forum... Be it a radio show once a week, a "letters to the editor" column, or an internet forum, how would you feel if one of your paid advertisers decided to use you to make himself a whole pile of publicity? Further, by also possibly incurring the wrath of your other advertisers. Advertising pays for this forum, like it or not. If TDR can't sell space, it can't exist. And in my OWN opinion, allowing one of the advertisers to use TDR to fling mud at another isn't kosher. But that's MY opinion. And, I don't run the place.



To be blunt, I was so hot under the collar when I read this for the first time I nearly said some really BAD stuff. But, then my cooler part prevailed and I asked someone else to moderate this thread. To determine if it's out of line or not. For all I know, they might toss me for what I feel like saying.



Just being a moderator doesn't mean I don't have opinions. It means I try my best to not let them affect my judgement. In this case, forget it. There's no way I'm touching this.

 

[TxDieselKid]

Originally posted by Power Wagon

Tell me, if you ran some public forum... Be it a radio show once a week, a "letters to the editor" column, or an internet forum, how would you feel if one of your paid advertisers decided to use you to make himself a whole pile of publicity? Further, by also possibly incurring the wrath of your other advertisers. Advertising pays for this forum, like it or not. If TDR can't sell space, it can't exist. And in my OWN opinion, allowing one of the advertisers to use TDR to fling mud at another isn't kosher. But that's MY opinion. And, I don't run the place.

Good point, I think if Bill would have done it differently, just a "hey by the way, that site is wrong" kinda deal it would have been better in terms of Bill's reputaion, and advertisiers opinions of the TDR site. Don't get me wrong Bill has a GREAT reputation, but those who have never met him think he is like this all the time and he is not. If anybody ever meets Bill, they will like him because he is a great kinda guy to get a long with.



I comend you on your actions Mark, good show.



Andrew

 

[RottnDogue]

So your saying that the sites advertisers are more important than the Truth? I wanna know who are the good companies and who are not. That's why I joined this site, and spend so much time here. If the Truth goes most of us will go and the Advertisers will follow.....



Also want to clarify that I am in no way saying that ATS or DTT are not telling the Truth, or are not good companies, I don't know enough about transmissions to make that kind of decision..... But hopefully with the help of the people here I will someday.

 

[dramer]

Originally posted by Dave MacArthur I'm glad to see that ATS has offered to correct their web site if found to be in error. I hope they are sincere when they say that. Bill, would it be possible for you to tell us what the correct figure is? Or is it proprietary info? ATS, could you tell us where you got the figure for DTT's friction surface?



Thanks,



Dave. [/B]

Dave: Thanks for your post. We at ATS Diesel Performance are passionate about our products and services just like everyone else. However, our intention with our web site is to educate, not deceive. That is why we spent so much time and energy clearly showing the benefits of our products and our company with details and facts. We have chosen not to illustrate our locking mechanisms for the TripleLok (TM) at this time for proprietary reasons, but hope to be able to do that very shortly.



With regard to DTT's clutch surface area, we cut open the torque converters of our competitors shown in the graph that Bill K. references. We measured the surface area of each and reported those numbers in the graph. It is possible that we miss-measured DTT's converter. Also, if Bill K. has redesigned his clutch area we could have had an older version. I don't know what happened, but we will gladly correct the error as soon as Bill K. provides accurate information.



If you read the information surrounding that graph on our website (www.atsdieselperformance.com/atsu/atsu-lockupclutch.html) you will see that our point wasn't to illustrate how little surface area our competitors have, but rather to illustrate that single plane surface area doesn't matter. If DTT or anyone else for that matter, filled the entire disk with clutch material (an exaggeration) it would only serve to weaken the holding power of the clutch as the effective lever arm is reduced. We are trying to illustrate the advantage of the multiple disk design with that graph.



Sincerely,

Don Ramer

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by RottnDogue

So your saying that the sites advertisers are more important than the Truth? I wanna know who are the good companies and who are not. That's why I joined this site, and spend so much time here. If the Truth goes most of us will go and the Advertisers will follow.....



Also want to clarify that I am in no way saying that ATS or DTT are not telling the Truth, or are not good companies, I don't know enough about transmissions to make that kind of decision..... But hopefully with the help of the people here I will someday.

How about I say this: Nobody, be it me, the owners of TDR, Bill K, the people who run ATS, or the transmission shop down the street, have a lock on knowing everything, making perfect stuff, and leaving no room for innovation or different approaches.



The "truth" as you say, is found by calm examination of what each says and what experience finds out about it.



Is Bill K the most reliable source for information about ATS? If so, is ATS the most reliable source for information about Bill K's products? Do you think Bill K knows what's inside ATS's converters? Do you suppose he's tested them for a few months on a test mule and/or dyno?



Where do you suppose ATS got specs for Bill K's clutch to put on their website? I don't know, actually. No idea. Bill doesn't say on his, at least not that I've noticed looking at it. I wonder how Bill knows how thier triple-lok clutch works?



My point is that the truth isn't best served by letting each define the other's products... but each defining their own, and then you and me making our best judgement from that information... and then, that will be backed up or not based upon the experience of those who post here who try them.

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by TxDieselKid







Don't get me wrong Bill has a GREAT reputation, but those who have never met him think he is like this all the time and he is not.



Andrew

I have not met Bill. I have driven a truck with his transmission. I've driven a truck with BD's.



I wish to heaven my transmission worked like Bill's. Products can stand on their own merit. And someone can stand solely on the merit of thier performance, too. That's what winners do.

 

[RottnDogue]

Originally posted by Power Wagon

Nobody, be it me, the owners of TDR, Bill K, the people who run ATS, or the transmission shop down the street, have a lock on knowing everything, making perfect stuff, and leaving no room for innovation or different approaches.

I couldn't agree with you more if I said it myself.

Is Bill K the most reliable source for information about ATS? If so, is ATS the most reliable source for information about Bill K's products? Do you think Bill K knows what's inside ATS's converters? Do you suppose he's tested them for a few months on a test mule and/or dyno? [/B]

Ok that's just silly and I won't respond

My point is that the truth isn't best served by letting each define the other's products... but each defining their own, and then you and me making our best judgement from that information... [/B]

So by your definition we should only choose our accessories, parts, etc. , by vendor advertisement? I am not a mechanic, and if I looked at 50 ads, the one with the best advertisement, or marketing department would get the business. I don't want to buy products (even though I know a lot of times I do) because someone can sell sh!* to a Donkey. I want to buy the best product... . I like the fact that some vendors come here and tell us about there product. If a vendor has a product that does what he says it does, I don't think there is a problem... . I think when the problem starts is when a vendor makes claims that he cannot back up..... I like the fact that people more knowledgeable than I will tell us if the vendor is Full of Crap. If that happens to be another vendor so be it. What that says to me is that this vendor that will speak out about another product has a product that he is willing to stand behind and is not making claims he cannot back up. If other vendors don't like it than there product must not do what they say it does. I like it even more when a vendor as ATS has done stays and defends their claims, and product. That to me means they truly believe it does do what they claim. And the truth will come out it the end..... But if it was left to advertisement the Truth would take years to know... . How long was DR. P Ripping people off?



Darren

 

[Ram4Sam]

What a crock Powerwagon!

Why do you expect Bill to just sit on his hands when he feels a competitor is spreading misinformation about his product, in one of their advertisements no less? Bill didn't rant and rave, start mudslinging and name calling. He simply stated the facts that he feels aren't true and unique way to prove to everyone who is right. How about the company who made these claims about Bill's products put up the same amount of money to back up their advertisement's claims. They shouldn't be afraid to back up things they state in their ads, or should they?



Your claim of grandstanding is a pile of horsemanure.



Sam