Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) After a Long, Reliable Relationship My '02 2500 Gets Sick on New Year's Eve

[PBJ2500CTD]

Well, after a reliable 107,800 miles my truck decided it did not want to attend the New Year's Eve celebration at my BILs. It was a cold night, about 21* F when we departed our house. The combustion sounded a bit more like marbles in a tin can, or sharply cracking when I started it, but it quieted down somewhat after a couple of minutes and ran well otherwise. Drove down the half-mile "moon crater" dirt road to the main highway. Got lined up on the straightaway and began accelerating; the automatic, in first gear, felt strong, but the engine still sounded a bit sharper than usual. I assumed it was due to the cold, crisp evening air. The shift to second felt slow, so I gave a bit more input to the accelerator pedal. I believe that I have now experienced the dreaded "dead pedal" as the truck no longer accelerated when I pressed on the "go" pedal. Found a place to turn around and limped back to the "moon crater" dirt road. As we got to the road the truck felt stronger again. I pulled over and decided to check for codes. PCU P1693, followed with an ECU P0216. NOoooo!!! (My brain kept recalling TDR forum articles and began erie incantations of $$VP44$$VP44$$VP44$$)
Today, no unusual noises. It started well. I let it warm up a bit. Ran codes - PCU P1693, but no ECU P0216. ??? Hmm. Gave her another chance on the road... this time all seemed good. Accelerated through first gear - then second gear, good so far... then slow-into-third-dead pedal... Nuggets!#@$%!. Back to the house and re-read codes... P1693, and now P0216 is back. More nuggets!

No check engine light...
Seems to run strong in first gear - quits going (not slipping - just a loss of git-up-n-go) when shifting to second or third gears.
No unusual smoking.
Just had oil/filter, and fuel filter changed within past 200 miles.
Have in-tank fuel pump - Put gage on and it's a'pumpin'.
Re-read the TDR forums and Chip Fisher's very informative troubleshooting web site for the umteenth time- Blue Chip Diesel Performance Specialists.

Sounds like VP44 time.

Before I humble myself to Mrs. Johnson for an after Christmas "present", does anyone have additional suggestions or input?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Sticks]

And what did the gauge say other than "It's a pumpin'. "?

From the mouth of Bosch No less than 10psi at all times. I have yet to see an in tank pump do 10, let alone more than 4 at WOT (and a brandy new one will fail the DC "Flow test" at WOT, no load).

Before you condemn the VP, install an OEM pump back on the side of the engine in series with the in tank pump, do the little bit of wire splicing needed to plug it in (you will need to make a "Y" pigtail) and see if that cures your ills. If not, do it anyways. It is a good fix for the fuel supply issue that does not require $500+ for an aftermarket pump. I've installed many and have not had any returns.

P0216 is not always a death code for a VP, it just means that it has pneumonia. With proper treatment (fuel pressure back where it is supposed to be) it may come back to normal. It's life span will have been shortened, but you may still get a few more years out of it.

Case in point - my truck. I did the whole frame rail relocation, replaced when getting weak, got the 216, doubled up on the frame pumps, both got weak, 216 again, replaced both and that lasted a month, then ponied up the $$$ for a Fass pump/filter kit. This was in 2004-2005. In 2009 my VP started intermittently acting up with the 216 again. Drove it another month or so until I got the funds for a replacement.

 

[JLandry]

Before you condemn the VP, install an OEM pump back on the side of the engine in series with the in tank pump, do the little bit of wire splicing needed to plug it in (you will need to make a "Y" pigtail) and see if that cures your ills. If not, do it anyways. It is a good fix for the fuel supply issue that does not require $500+ for an aftermarket pump. I've installed many and have not had any returns.

Sticks,



I'm not so sure splicing in a second lift pump to the same original circuit is a good idea without at least using a relay to power it. Remember that the power for that circuit comes directly from the ECM without even a fuse inline to protect it. Too much amp draw could damage the transistors inside the ECM, then the situation would be worse.



Otherwise verifying adequate fuel pressure is a great idea as you're suggesting.



Best regards,



John L.

 

[Sticks]

It depends on who did the in tank install. All the kits that I did (direct from the dealer) had the relay and wire harness. The relay does not draw that much additional amperage, and if it did, splicing into the line post relay would still be easy.

 

[JLandry]

It depends on who did the in tank install. All the kits that I did (direct from the dealer) had the relay and wire harness. The relay does not draw that much additional amperage, and if it did, splicing into the line post relay would still be easy.

Agreed. If he already has a relay in the lift pump circuit, he's good to go. I forgot those in-tank kits included a relay (I don't have one).



Regardless of the lift pump arrangement, at a minimum I'd recommend putting an accurate gauge on the lift pump inlet to verify there's adequate fuel pressure. If there isn't, with that many miles on the fuel injection pump, with that DTC, and with the dead pedal symptoms experienced, it's probably too late for that particular VP44... the damage may have already been done.



John L.

 

[Sticks]

We'll see what PBJ2500CTD come back with.

Bad fuel pressure, fix it first and see if the VP is still cranky.

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Sticks, John,

Thanks for your input. My good FP gage is playing hide-n-seek and I had to use a lesser quality one. The in-tank pump read ~ 10 psi at idle. WOT dropped to ~ 6 psi, which is a little better than 8 & 1 with the old original factory LP. My good gage typically reads 2 to 3 psi higher than the cheapo one. I may have to re-address the pressure issue with the mechanic I have entrusted my truck to when i don't have the time to get greasy. This may be one of those occasions as it is renewal time for our registrants and I'll be bustin' tail for the next few weeks holding hands/offering guidance for those errant few. When I expressed concern with the 10 and lower psi, he came back with "it's not the pressure that is important, but the flow". He is darned good at his trade - over 20 years with diesels, mostly Cummins. I am begining to think the poor VP44 has been cruisin' on the edge of the fast wear line for most of its life with only 10 psi.
Now to go for a plan of attack.

I again appreciate and thank you both for your valuable input.

 

[Sticks]

When I expressed concern with the 10 and lower psi, he came back with "it's not the pressure that is important, but the flow". ...

I gag a little every time I hear or read that.

I worked for a Bosch Certified fuel injection shop in Denver (Central Motive Power)for a few years in the Service Shop.

Our Bosch tech guy... The US tech guy that came buy for classes on the new automotive fuel systems, existing fuel systems and to address other issues, like the ULS fuel nightmare, anytime VP44 was brought up it was, "Absolutely, no matter what, no less than 10 psi on OE spec fuel lines at all times. " and snorted anytime someone asked about the DC Flow test. And yes he did say "OE spec fuel lines" because there are people like me who replaced Dodges metal lines with all matter of sizes (another topic he did not want to get into).

SO... I am not knocking your mechanic, he has 20 years, I have 6, the first three were focused 98% on the Dodge 5. 9, Ford 7. 3 (IDI & PS) and Chev 6. 2, 6. 5 and a little DuraSlug. I urge you to seek a 3rd opinion on Pressure vs. Flow. I think you will find overwhelmingly here on the TDR that it's pressure, 10psi or more.

I've been there, done that on over 50 VP44 replacements, and god knows how many P0216 codes that the dealer (several from the Denver area) could not make go away, we supplied them [dealer] with the VP, they sent it to us for warranty, we fix it with proper fuel pressure.

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

I gag a little every time I hear or read that.

Gag?... Do you mean like in holding back a huge belly laugh, and not like you are about to share your lunch in the next 10 seconds?

I worked for a Bosch Certified fuel injection shop in Denver (Central Motive Power)for a few years in the Service Shop.

Which is why I value your input. Back shop personell often see things in a different light than the field personell.

Our Bosch tech guy... The US tech guy that came buy for classes on the new automotive fuel systems, existing fuel systems and to address other issues, like the ULS fuel nightmare, anytime VP44 was brought up it was, "Absolutely, no matter what, no less than 10 psi on OE spec fuel lines at all times. " and snorted anytime someone asked about the DC Flow test. And yes he did say "OE spec fuel lines" because there are people like me who replaced Dodges metal lines with all matter of sizes (another topic he did not want to get into).

The key words here are "OE spec fuel lines". It would be a good assumption that the Bosch engineers determined a minimum of 10 psi is necessary to maintain adequate fuel flow to the VP44 using the factory spec lines. If modifications are made to your engine that would require more flow you may increase pressure up to a certain point to acquire only a limited increase in flow. Then if you get real serious with your mods you can increase the tube size and pump pressure to accomodate the higher flow requirements.

SO... I am not knocking your mechanic, he has 20 years, I have 6, the first three were focused 98% on the Dodge 5. 9, Ford 7. 3 (IDI & PS) and Chev 6. 2, 6. 5 and a little DuraSlug. I urge you to seek a 3rd opinion on Pressure vs. Flow.

Hey... I knock him all the time, and he knocks right back. We each keep an open mind and learn from one another. Often times we are talking about the same thing, only in different words.

I think you will find overwhelmingly here on the TDR that it's pressure, 10psi or more.

I can do nothing more than agree with you 100%, especially when looking at the truck profiles containing some pretty sweet mods. Aaannd... I can almost tell which soap box each of the TDR experts stand on.

I've been there, done that on over 50 VP44 replacements, and god knows how many P0216 codes that the dealer (several from the Denver area) could not make go away, we supplied them [dealer] with the VP, they sent it to us for warranty, we fix it with proper fuel pressure.

Real world experience... This makes your input most valuable. And I really appreciate it. Thanks again!

 

[RAJohnson]

Bruce my new pump will be here thursday, waiting to be put in. Your issues sound just like mine had over the last year, more noticeable in the last month.



Have you have read the article here on the TDR about VP44 Fix I submitted, I will post after the weekend and let everyone know if I was successful.



I have ran a FASS ( 15-18 psi constant ) since I got the truck new in 02 and now at 138K it time for fixing. I did tap the VP @ 38K with the comp, which might have lead to some of the problem, but thats just speculation on my part. But I would not remove it if I had to, it sure made driving allot funner!



Cold can make a good truck sound bad when first fired in the morning, sounds as if the valves are going to come out thru the top, let it warm up under slight to moderate load be for giving it the wood. I do

 

[AClayton]

I totally agree with Sticks! I prefer to stay just under 20lbs while idling and never fall below 12lbs WOT. That is with modded trucks!! A essentially stock truck with supposed 'volume' as opposed to psi should not drop below 10psi period... ... . let alone dropping to a mere 6psi. 10psi is an absolute min. requirement and should be treated as such by obtaining a lift pump that will propel the psi figure to 18 or so.



I have a distinct feeling that starving your IP for fuel may not have caused your failure primarily because the 02's were a little more problematic as I recall. The reason yours lasted as long as it did is because you have not modded your truck.





Alan

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Bruce my new pump will be here thursday, waiting to be put in. Your issues sound just like mine had over the last year, more noticeable in the last month.

Have you have read the article here on the TDR about VP44 Fix I submitted, I will post after the weekend and let everyone know if I was successful.

I have ran a FASS ( 15-18 psi constant ) since I got the truck new in 02 and now at 138K it time for fixing. I did tap the VP @ 38K with the comp, which might have lead to some of the problem, but thats just speculation on my part. But I would not remove it if I had to, it sure made driving allot funner!

Cold can make a good truck sound bad when first fired in the morning, sounds as if the valves are going to come out thru the top, let it warm up under slight to moderate load be for giving it the wood. I do

Rob,

Seems like most people get to drive their vehicles with some coaxing or magic fairy dust; dead pedal, and then able to drive miles and miles or years with minor inconvenient pedal issues. Maybe I haven't allowed it enough time to reset since I was close to home and limped back to safety.

I did see the article. Excellent information regarding the electronics.

Which pump did you get? About a year ago I made a comment to my mechanic regarding a light knocking noise coming from under the hood. It is a lot louder than my previous 98. 5 24V. He said it was typical wear noise associated with this series of injection pump. So i think this pump is on its way out for good. It's probably time to change both the IP and LP.

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

I totally agree with Sticks! I prefer to stay just under 20lbs while idling and never fall below 12lbs WOT. That is with modded trucks!! A essentially stock truck with supposed 'volume' as opposed to psi should not drop below 10psi period... ... . let alone dropping to a mere 6psi. 10psi is an absolute min. requirement and should be treated as such by obtaining a lift pump that will propel the psi figure to 18 or so.

I have a distinct feeling that starving your IP for fuel may not have caused your failure primarily because the 02's were a little more problematic as I recall. The reason yours lasted as long as it did is because you have not modded your truck.


Alan

Alan,

The crystal ball is beginning show a clear vision of new, more powerful pumps. May be time to let the mods begin. Looking for reliable towing and good mileage.

 

[RAJohnson]

Bruce with all the pumps out there on the market today. I think there all comparable, provided there purchased thru a reliable shop or vendor, and rebuilt by a qualified Bosch shop. I would also say I think the blue chip might be one of the best out there according to all the info here on TDR and the service they give after the sale. Saying that I did not purchase there's do to saving a quite a few bucks buy using a competitior. PM me and I will divulge were I purchased it from, and the price.



And it was a 17X pump. I would not spend the money on a HRVP, my opinion is there not worth the extra money for what you get.

 

[fest3er]

... Aaannd... I can almost tell which soap box each of the TDR experts stand on. ...

Hijack warning...

• Tide (parrots the general concensus)
  
• All (glib in every make and model)
  
• Era (sticks with the single model he's most familiar with)
  
• Cheer (captains a vendor's cheerleading squad)
  
• Wisk (displays a tendency to sweep problems under the rug)
  
• Arm & Hammer (advocates total DIY)
  
• Fab (champions central Calif. methods)
  
• Fresh Start (most often advises scrapping it all and starting over)
  
• Surf (dude doesn't care about power so long as it hauls his surfboards)
  
• Gain (prefers rapid RPM increase over low-end grunt)
  
• Woolite (prehistoric mammoth who eschews all electronics)
  
• Costco (any kind of bargain is better than sound engineering)
  

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Hijack warning...

• Tide (parrots the general concensus)
• All (glib in every make and model)
• Era (sticks with the single model he's most familiar with)
• Cheer (captains a vendor's cheerleading squad)
• Wisk (displays a tendency to sweep problems under the rug)
• Arm & Hammer (advocates total DIY)
• Fab (champions central Calif. methods)
• Fresh Start (most often advises scrapping it all and starting over)
• Surf (dude doesn't care about power so long as it hauls his surfboards)
• Gain (prefers rapid RPM increase over low-end grunt)
• Woolite (prehistoric mammoth who eschews all electronics)
• Costco (any kind of bargain is better than sound engineering)

:-laf:-laf:-laf Love it!!!

 

[Sticks]

Fest3er,

That bored?

 

[PBJ2500CTD]

Fest3er,

That bored?

Methinks the political forum's stirrers haven't been very active lately leaving Neal with lots of extra creative time on his hands...