Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Fuel Psi good then dwindles to 0 - long read

[JKinney]

I have not posted in a long time. . I also have the same fuel system. My last problem was bad connection on power lead on the battery. It had become loose and caused intermitent problems. Such as 14 psi with out the engine running with a pig tail in the relay, When I start the engine fuel pressure goes to zero (not enough amperage). I have also had to hone out the brass regulator, as the plunger was sticking. I have also had the inside of the fuel line collapes. I have also had the protective cap on the inside of an additive bottle accidentally get dropped in the tank so that the vulcan draw straw sucks it up and plugs the intake untill you shut down and then it works great till it gets sucked up again. Also have replaced the relay it gets hot and quits. Start with the hot wire/battery terminals.

Jon

 

[Joe Mc]

After my trip on Monday last week and after the truck sat at the Philly airport parking from late that evening till late Wednesday night and the drive home all went well I "thought" all was well. Thursday am, fired up the truck psi was fine, headed down the road to get coffee psi fine, left running, went inside came back out, cold enough where high idle was on, hopped in psi fine, tapped the brake and off I go. I get about a mile down the road and notice there's 0 fuel psi - WTF! Turn around, head home grab the wifey mobile and use it for the rest of the week:{. So, today I figure let's see if she'll be OK? Turn key on wait to start cycles off, I bump the key, hear the pump come on and the psi goes to normal. Fire truck up, psi good = YES! So, I grab a broom and figure I'll knock some of the remaining snow off, I hear the high idle start to work. Hmm, let's take a look at that psi - at 10 and slowly creeping to 0 !?! F-this I hit the brake pedal high idle kicks out and psi returns to 20=normal. I once again say F-this, shut it down and head in shame once again to the wifey mobile #@$%!.



At this point I'm leaning towards more electrical than mechanical. So once things warm up I'm going to re-check battery connections (were tight last week) and work my way back. In the spring last year I soldered most of the "solder-less" wire crimp connections and even both ends of the one that goes from the battery to the relay block that came with the kit. So, unfortunately, more to come.



On the business trip (while truck sitting in Philly airport Mon - Wed) I had a 2012 Chrysler 300, beautiful car! I looked on line yesterday and did a build your own - yikes the SRT8 bases at 48k! Once again F-this. I'll keep cobbling my old truck together and maybe even treat it to some new paint in the spring before I even think about a $600/mth car payment = no f-n way.

 

[JLandry]

At this point I'm leaning towards more electrical than mechanical.

I'd install a second fuel pressure test gauge... preferably a mechanical one... and leave it tucked away under the hood. When (or if) you notice the fuel pressure dropping in the cab again, you can pull over, jump out, and compare it against the test gauge to verify you really have a low fuel pressure problem and not a sending unit problem.



Regards,



John L.

 

[Joe Mc]

Thanks for reply, but I doubt a sending unit problem would cause the issues described in first post - note Friday 1/25/13 last three sentences.



So I take it out today and all seems fine, temps about 45ish. Well all "seemed" fine and actually was until I hit the go pedal and it starts fueling hard then she beings to drop to 10 and under, off the go pedal bounces right back to normal. Something going on something somewhere. Come on weather warm up on the friggin weekend so I can start tracing wires and cleaning/tightening/searching for lose links... .

 

[JKinney]

Joe, When my walbro starts to act up, the first thing I do is pull the relay and put my pig tail wire in the relay holder to hard wire the pump so I have power to the pump and pressure whether the engine is running or not. I do have to fuel pressure gauges post and pre filter one is mechanical one is electric. It was funny the last time I had problems the pig tail was installed with good pressure till I start the engine and the pressure goes to 0 (ie the bad electric connection). With that system you should always have a pig tail for bleeding the filter system or trouble shooting a bad relay. I have run for hours with the pig tail installed.
Good Luck

 

[Joe Mc]

OK Guys here's the deal. I found a Walbro replacement pump - same exact unit @ http://www.gsl392.com/ for $95! That I got when I originally ordered my system from Glacier. Unfortunately Glacier no longer offers them = went to supplying FASS units.



And then...



I ordered up 2, 3/8" fuel line unions w/1/8" tap for gage, new VP44 Overflow valve, Engine Barring Tool and a Cummins "Oil Engine" cap from Geno's Garage. Why the purchases?

* 2, 3/8" Union/tap - During one of my "hunting/troubleshooting" excursions recently I think I cracked the original fuel line union where my FP sender was when I removed the sender and installed a bunch of fittings and hoses for the mechanical test gauge (that I taped along the body up to the top of the windshield so I could see what was going on as I drove) as when I returned home it was leaking fuel. Why 2? So I could compare the in A-pillar gage to the mechanical one, and to have an easy to connect up to port the next time I wanted to check psi w/mechanical gage and not have to worry about disconnecting the sender unit/damage it when doing so.

* VP Overflow valve - I removed the one on my VP and testing "seemed" like it wasn't functioning correctly, heck what's another $35 = cheap insurance.

* Engine barring tool - not related to this lack of FP expedition, just always wanted one, a real PIA when adj valves or lining up timing marks etc turning over the engine with the alt pulley.

* Cummins Oil Engine Hat - so we really need a reason why? Didn't think so.



So here's what I did after all the parts arrived and I finally had a decently warm day to work (oh, truck has been OOC for last week as I had a fuel leak and was just too cold to address "and" waiting for parts):

* Tried on the hat - ohhh baby dats nice.

* Looked at the barring tool - ohhh baby dats nice too then put in the tool box.

* Tested the new Overflow = same results as the original one. - Ohhh baby dats nice too and put in spare parts storage with all the other ohhh baby dats nice items.

* OK enough BS:



Removed the fueling system (partial) assembly following items: hose before and in-line pre pump screen/filter, pump, sender unit and hose after to the Tee = 1 outlet to reg valve/back to tank & 1 to spin on fuel system filter.



Upon setting this up on the tailgate as a pattern to install new hoses (just in-case there was a "flap" inside one of these hoses) and the new components I noticed something that for some reason "totally" escaped my prior extravaganzas of trouble shooting... . the pre-pump in-line fuel screen/filter had a date of "06/07" written on it "by me" = D'oh!!!



Before I continue I must admit, other than being a friggin knuckle head and not noticing/changing this in-line filter/screen when I last changed the spin on FF ( less than 1000 miles ago), I was pretty ticked off that I ordered all this "stuff" (and after trying to catch up on my TDR reading - most recently read issue TDR77 of course I started reading this "after" ordering all the stuff mentioned above) and a bit embarrassed at my lack of attention I wasn't really planning on sharing my idiotic-ness here. But, especially, after reading some of this (TDR77) issues articles with the Theme of: "wish I'd known that before I... . " There was "no-way" I couldn't put one of my own "ah, ha!" moments out there to: 1-give everyone that's been trying to help me on this a "good laugh" at what stupid idiots we can all be at times and 2-a "don't forget to check the small stuff first! Reminder to all of us.



OK, back to the point.



So, after noticing the date (06/07) on the pre-screen/filter "and" after a few choice expletives to myself, I took my trusty Harbor Freight hose cutter and cut the hose between the screen and pump, wiped off the inlet from the tank side of the screen and "tried" (yes tried) to blow thru it..... Of course... . "It was friggin blocked!!!!!" Double D'oh!!!! The friggin Walbro was fine, and yada, yada, STUPID IDIOT!! and "Oh whata-goose-I-am". Arrrggghhhh!



OK, so at this point I figure what the heck and continue with the install new hoses on the new pump, hose to the new union, hose from new union to the Tee and swap the FP sender onto the new union. Install new partial fuel assy. Connect up all electrics - making sure to test the red wire from relay to the new pump was indeed the "+" wire before connecting everything - see previous "you friggin stupid idiot" moment.



OK, everything looks good, let’s see if we can fire up and make some smoke. I turn the key to on, wait to start light on, and no PSI on the A=pillar FP gage? Jog key to start once, still nothing, in fact it reads negative? Now WTF! I get down under to make sure the new Walbro is running - yep, why no FP? I'm getting really good at finding my stupidity = probably would have been a good idea to turn the fuel from the tank to pump system valve "on", unbelievable... .



So, back up and try again, still no PSI? Now what... "F-it" started right up running like a charm = YES! and also remaining, WTF now?



So, I shut down and swap the red/black wires on the sending unit. Results "BAMB" same friggin thing 0 PSI. Install the other new union and connect up hoses and mech gage. Fire up and this time for real "BINGO" 19 - 20# finally a real "YES!"



So, before heading down the road to see what happens at varied go pedal positions I wire tie (the new age duct tape) all the hoses so they're nowhere near anything that could create an issue - see there's hope for this idiot after all - and then run the hose under the back door (OC truck) wire tie the hose the gauge is connected to onto the 4X4 shifter so I can read it and down the road I go.



Finally, success! Rock steady once again = very little fluctuation at any go pedal position even with the Edge Comp on "KILL".



At this point I'm pretty disappointed with the Westach sending unit as this will be the 3rd one that's gone (or that I "caused to" go) bad in the last 11 years since I installed the gages (right after I bought the truck in 05/01 w/5k miles).



What really ticked me off even more (about Westach) is I went to my trusty Geno's Garage catalog to order up a new sending unit I noticed a few things in the Westach line-up of products.

1-There's a new fuel pressure gage that displays on the face of if "Diesel Fuel Pressure" with the sending unit. Ohhh baby dats nice but for $215. 00 it'll stay right there in the catalog.

2-I go to "Westach accessories" and find the replacement sender unit is "$135. 00"!?!?!?!?

3-"But wait there's more"!!! This sending unit is "only for" the gage that displays "Diesel Fuel Pressure" on the face.



WTF!!!! When I originally purchased "all" my Westach gages; Combo Boost/EGT, Trans Temp & Fuel Psi, along with "all" the senders and probes needed to connect up "and" the tri-pod A-pillar "and" paint to match, all this cost about $500. So now I have to pay almost 50% of that for one gage and "only" because the $135 sending unit is "only" for the new gage.



The last time I replaced the sending unit it was like $40! OK rant complete. I'm hopeful I can contact Westach direct and get a replacement sender. Of course before doing so I'll check the air in my tires to make sure that's not the problem-LOL. Actually I'm hoping it's a loose wire somewhere instead of a "loose nut behind the wheel".



I hope somehow my story has at least made someone laugh and/or maybe share a bit of 2 things, 1-check the stupid/small stuff and 2-when you put a date on something so you know when it was last changed - make sure that date isn't covered by the mounting device so you can "actually" see it... .



Happy Easter and/or Passover

 

[Joe Mc]

So, look what I found on the Westach site... .



Sending unit: (for "my" original gage):

http://www.westach.com/products/ACCESSORIES/PRESSURE SENDERS/240 OHM RESISTIVE SENDERS/index.php

Model: 387-30V2-C

Price: $62. 60

Pressure sender 30 psi, 240 ohm, 1/8" npt



Original Gauge:

http://www.westach.com/products/SINGLE/2 INCH/FUEL PRESSURE/index.php

Model: 2C8-37

Price: $62. 65

FP 30 psi, 2" round, 8-30 vdc, Use with 387-30V2-C



Look what I found on Geno's Garage.....



Sending unit: (only for "Diesel Fuel Pressure" type gage)

http://www.genosgarage.com/WESTACH-0-30PSI-FUEL-PRESSURE-SENDER/productinfo/WM-TD-387G/

WESTACH 0-30PSI FUEL PRESSURE SENDER

Item Number: WM-TD-387G Unit Price: $135. 00



"Diesel Fuel Pressure" gage:

http://www.genosgarage.com/WESTACH-FUEL-PRESSURE-GAUGE-0-30-PSI/productinfo/WM-K2FP-30/

WESTACH FUEL PRESSURE GAUGE (0-30 PSI)

Item Number: WM-K2FP-30

TD-K2FP-30G $215. 00TD-K2FP-30GW $215. 00



So,the question is, "what's the difference here"



DATA:

Westach's prices:

for both gage and sender @ $125. 22

price for sender only $62. 60



Geno's Garage's prices:

for both gage and sender $215

for just the sender (and not one I can use) $135



ANSWER:

$89. 78 for gage and sender - saved or "spent more for" depending on where purchased

$72. 40 for sender - saved or "spent more for" depending on where purchased



I have purchased many items over the years from Geno's. Doing so is very convenient, however - I can order on-line "just" as conveniently elsewhere without paying "extra" for the same "convenience".



I know "the choice is up to (me) us".



Just sharing more "thing's I wish I would have known before I ..... "

 

[hcole]

Joe, you're a big man to own up to your overlooking the prior install of the pump filter. One came with my Fass and it is still on the shelf. I decided the VP44 was more important than trying to protect that fuel pump. Glad you finally fixed it. Most people would never acknowledge that sort of mistake.

 

[Joe Mc]

Hcole and the rest of the "readers" of my "novel".



1-Thanks for reading

2-Thanks for replying with all your ideas and finally

3-About me - "Moma always said, Stupid is as stupid does"... .

 

[gtwitch]

Joe, The information that I received from the source that I was able to purchase the sending unit from, you had better buy two or three sending units because Westac has discontinued this guage/sending unit combination, so I did buy 2 sending units. This was the same problem I was having about a year ago and the new sending unit was the fix!! I am thinking that the advise here on TDR is to put a snubber (grease gun hose) in series with the sending unit and mounting the unit off on the side somewhere so the engine vibs don't kill the sending units!! My 2 cents worth for now! I have been fighting another fuel system problem wdith air in the line from frame mounted pump to VP44, I have used the trouble shooting guide from Chip at Bluechip and it is invaluable. I think I found where the air was getting into the system yesterday! I will elaborate later when I have confirmed my latest test results.



gtwitch in Wyoming

 

[DavidC]

Joe, I am thinking that the advise here on TDR is to put a snubber (grease gun hose) in series with the sending unit and mounting the unit off on the side somewhere so the engine vibs don't kill the sending units!!

gtwitch in Wyoming

Mine has been on a grease hose for 11 years and ty-wrapped to some lines in front of the master brake cylinder. Bought the grease hose at Pep Boys it is 11 years old also.

Dave

 

[GReed]

Joe, you might check with Summit Racing and see if they have a 0-30 Stewart-Warner sending unit. I believe they are a 240ohm unit. I've used both Westach and S/W on my Nordskog gauge, have had to replace both types, but the S/W was $35. 00 at Summit.

 

[Joe Mc]

Joe, The information that I received from the source that I was able to purchase the sending unit from, you had better buy two or three sending units because Westac has discontinued this guage/sending unit combination, so I did buy 2 sending units. This was the same problem I was having about a year ago and the new sending unit was the fix!! I am thinking that the advise here on TDR is to put a snubber (grease gun hose) in series with the sending unit and mounting the unit off on the side somewhere so the engine vibs don't kill the sending units!! My 2 cents worth for now! I have been fighting another fuel system problem wdith air in the line from frame mounted pump to VP44, I have used the trouble shooting guide from Chip at Bluechip and it is invaluable. I think I found where the air was getting into the system yesterday! I will elaborate later when I have confirmed my latest test results.



gtwitch in Wyoming

G-Years back I had rusty metal pipe coming right out of the fuel tank module - a pin hole, didn't leak, just created a situation where the pusher pump wouldn't get primed, it let air in allowing the fuel to drain back to the tank and create an air pocket = enough to give a hard start. This fix was the Vulcan Draw Straw.



Oh, I'm aware of the hose to the sender unit - good tip - but my sender is on the frame about 12" downstream of the pusher pump. I'll have to get a few of those senders.



Thanks for the rest of the replies guys. Info is the key and sharing it is priceless for those who are working thru problems or just learing.