America is a Police State??

[RustyJC]

Gentlemen,



Just curious. Since America is so bad, are you planning on emigrating soon? If so, to which country? I've been to quite a few in my 30 years in the oil business and have yet to find a better one.



Rusty

 

[KOdegaard]

Rusty,

So if I understand you correctly, you think every thing is just as it

should be? You think it is OK to take more than 50% of what

you produce and give it to someone else? Just wondering.

Kirk

 

[Champane Flight]

Lets see?

What do you plan to do about it? Revolt? Norways taxes equal around 60% of their income. They have a few things to show for it though. Paid healthcare, paid education, paid unemployment, and several other programs that benefit the public. What do we get for our bucks? More politicians and more bueracracys. Oh and we get to rebuild countrys after we bomb them.

 

[RustyJC]

Kirk,



No, I want to know what your standard of reference is. If you know of someplace better than America, please share your knowledge with the rest of us poor ignorant sheep. Frankly, I get pretty da**ed sick and tired of listening to people ***** and whine about my country, especially if they haven't had the privilege of comparing it firsthand to other places in this world.



It sorta reminds me of what Winston Churchill said about democracy - "It's the worst possible form of government... ... except for all the others. " OK, so America isn't perfect - name someplace that's better.



Rusty

 

[KOdegaard]

Someone once said, if you think health care is expensive

now, wait until it is free. :--)



Of course this goes along with anything gubberment

get it hands on. Private sector is best for most things,

gubberment is inept at most things.

 

[merryman]

To suggest that there is much room for improvement is NOT the same as suggesting that some other country has a better system.



We are taxed WAY TO MUCH. That does not mean there is a better country; it does mean that at every turn we should try to reduce the tax burden.



On availability of medical care

1. I read an interview with an MD who was retireing after 50 years of practice. The interviewer asked lots of questions and at the end, his final question was something along the line, Dr. what is the single best thing people can do to extend their life?



The answer; "stay away from doctors"



2. A study by the Harvard Medical school a few years ago concluded that medical errors by MDs, hospital staff, and drug dispensers accounted for 300,000 deaths per year---amounts to the leading cause of death in the USA. That does not include those who are only messed up be the errors.

Poor folks who can not afford to see a Dr. are probably fortunate.



Vaughn

 

[KOdegaard]

Rusty

I do not wish to get into a flame war and mean no disrespect

to you, we can agree to disagree, OK?

My standard, if you will, is what our founding fathers envisioned

for us and gave us a form of gov they hoped would achieve that.

We the people have not been vigilant about keeping the

tentacle's of gov bound by the chains of the constitution.

Don't get me wrong this is the best place to be, however

gov is out of control and what are things going to be like

for our kids and beyond?

Just for the record this is also my country and I do not

plan or wish to live any other place. As long as I am breathing

I will and have a right to affect change as best I can.

If that is whining and b****ing so be it. I will always

speak my mind.

BTW this is a republic not a democracy, huge diff,

I m also d***ed sick and tired of folks in gov saying this.

It is simply untrue

Kirk

 

[RustyJC]

If you wish to hold present day America up to a perceived ideal established by her founding fathers, that's your choice. Understand, however, that those same founding fathers institutionalized slavery (slaves counted as 3/5 of the free populace in determining the number of seats for each state in the House of Representatives). My point - the world has changed, and I doubt that we can really go back to a pure mid-to-late 18th century model of government. If you wish to try within the bounds of our political system, that's certainly your prerogative.



Secondly, you need to re-read my post - you're attributing a statement to me that I never made. Nowhere did I say America was a democracy. Rather, I made an analogy to Churchill's comments regarding democracy, and my point, like his, was that America (like democracy) may be imperfect, but it beats the heck out of whatever is in second place.



If someone wishes to improve America, that's fine... . I'm all for it. I'm not, however, very tolerant of individuals who refer to her as a police state or other similar derogatory terms.



Rusty

 

[Champane Flight]

It was

Someone once said, if you think health care is expensive

now, wait until it is free.

It was probably an insurance company!

 

[KOdegaard]

Our founders were not perfect. The fact remains if one

will look that the issues, stated in the first post of this thread,

are tyrannical in their very nature and the gov is becoming

more so everyday. I am referring to gov not "our" country.

This is a great place to live and the fact that we can

post back and forth is evidence of that.



I used poor judgment as to the mention of democracy.

I stand corrected, please accept my apology.



Kirk

 

[Mike Ellis]

Whoah, when did it become 1968 again? "America: Love it or leave it, ya punk... "



IMHO, we are nearing a police state nowadays precisely because too darned many Americans are willing to sit on their thumbs and NOT grouse about the things that are happening in our nation. From meek acceptance of illegal immigration, to meek acceptance of "everybody's a crook" motor vehicle laws, to meek acceptance of "everybody's a potential terrorist" Patriot Act laws, our society is awful darned good at sitting back and accepting.



Maybe it's just too much trouble to argue about these things. Or maybe it just creates an unseemly "scene". Or maybe we just don't want to be seen as negative. But are the people who DO grouse about these things un-American? Mercy sakes - being honest enough to point out problems in our government or society doesn't make somebody a bad American any more than being honest about problems in a marriage would make them a bad husband or wife.



Every political action we undertake should be in keeping with the general principle of passing on an America stronger and better than the one WE inherited, so that our children's children's children will be freer than any generation that has gone before them, and so on to the end of time. Do many of the things that we are doing today live up to this test? Well, if we somehow think that an America built on remorseless legislation of EVERY ASPECT of our lives is the way to achieve this goal, we seem to be doing OK. If on the other hand we think that individual choice and freedom are things to prize, we might want to reconsider - otherwise our children will inherit the national equivalent of a homeowner's association, with thousands upon thousands upon thousands of directives regulating everything they do.



Wow, what a utopia that will be.

 

[Rman]

I'll chime in with a point to make. America is still set up for a man to succeed, but no one says that's easy. I just worked an auction all damn weekend driving tractors and loading equipment. My father in-law is an auctioneer, and runs a successful auction company. All of this is he's own making started from scratch.



I'm learning the ropes and am seriously considering quitting my "gravy" government job to do this. Why? because it is working for me not for someone else. I choose when where and how much i work. It gives a sense of satisfaction to get the pleasure of your own accomplishment. Where else could this purely capitalistic, free market style business succeed. I'm thankful for where i live.



My wife is also a real estate agent, makes way more than i do (thank god) and pays "self employment" tax. Its a cool 15% higher than my taxes. And they are not taken out of her pay... so every april i have the luxury of cutting a nice check... most of the time worthy of say a new dodge pickup right to the govn't... talk about pain. I hate doing it, try every "tax evasion" trick possible but still it's my duty as a citizen to help pay for our "luxury". Someone has to maintain roads... pay for those nifty airplanes that fly around protecting us, pay for police, pay for the paper that my 1040 comes on.



Yeah it sucks, taxes are too high, but i'm with RusyJC, find some place better. Lemme guess the Russians had the right idea with the NEP 85 years ago? yeah sure... i'll take free market anyday.



Just remember no one said you had to do what ever it is you do for a living. Why didn't you design a nifty program called windows and market it to IBM? Why didn't you design a nifty thing called the automobile or a nifty assembly line to build one? These are all great inventions that took place in OUR own system. Success is there, just remember it's not fair and it's the strong survive. IF you're not strong enough then i guess you just don't get your so called "fair" cut.



That being said from a standard right wing viewpoint... I do understand that not everyone is brilliant and everyone has certain "rights". But i still think our system is the best one around, albeit flawed and biased... that's why we should get out and vote and replace the croanies with some real politicians that actually care.

 

[Champane Flight]

I think in many ways we still hold those freedoms and in many ways we have lost a few. The few we have lost have been missed, but in some ways better for the whole. I believe that oppurtunity is all around us, we have to look a little harder nowadays is all. Hard work will always prevail and working for ones self is never what it cracks up to be. You are never really working for yourself. In a customer based biz, you are working for them and ect. The thing is to find something you enjoy.



The taxes we pay are a nasty way of life, it does hurt hard to see the amount withheld from your payroll every payday. I would love to see it go away, however I do realise that this will never happen. I think what bothers me even more is what we get for this money we give. Even worse is what we are giving it for! I would give much easier if the government was trying to balance the buget, or find a way for the whole of the US to get heatlhcare. But, more and more we are paying for some politician to get richer. And more and more, tax cuts is given for all the wrong reasons, political gain, instead of, we can afford it, lets give a little back.

 

[Rman]

wow i actually agree with CF! Taxes are plain and simple the way it is. They're ALWAYS going to be there, it's a matter of getting people in office who know how to spend it in a respectable manner.



Taxes stink, period. Teaparty anyone?

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by Mike Ellis

Whoah, when did it become 1968 again? "America: Love it or leave it, ya punk... "

Yeah, I guess some of us are old enough to remember Merle Haggard's Fightin' Side of Me - the chorus went:

If you don't love it, leave it.

Let this song that I'm singin' be a warning.

When you're runnin' down our country, Hoss,

You're walking on the fightin' side of me.

I'm not totally uncomfortable with Merle's philosophy.



P. S. - I was in ROTC in 1968, getting spit on and pelted with rocks and eggs while on weekly drills, so I was on the other side from the hippies and peaceniks. The Army ROTC building was burned down the next year. So, maybe I'm a little bit biased.



Rusty

 

[Champane Flight]

Change it or lose it!

I had a change it or lose it sticker on my pickup. Got into a few battles over it. After the battles one of the cowboys called me a draft dodger, and started blubbering on about his brother in Nam. I just replied "I just got back, who is he with?". He got the strangest look on his face. Made friends that night.



Nobody expected a longhaired hippie lookin rascal to be a vet. I would forget about the sticker all the time, and would get into all kinds of scraps with it. Lotsa fun in those days. I wasn't paticular what side I was on, I punched a hippie in the nose in the Airport in Oakland. He had a saliva problem, so I helped him out with my fist in his mouth! Come to think of it, how the heck am I still living?

 

[fest3er]

A few questions, if I may.

The 1st amendment guarantees us the right "to petition the government for a redress of grievances. " Does this right apply before or after we pay taxes? That is, consider that 'We the People' foundation formed a list of more than 500 questions specifically about tax law, and delivered the petition to the Executvie and Legislative branches of the US Government. There has been no response to the specific questions. So, one question: since the goverment have refused to answer the petition, are we within our right to withhold our taxes until such time as the government *do* answer the petition?

I've read enough of the US CFR to realize that most, if not all, of my income is not, and has never been, subject to US income tax. There is enough evidence to suggest that employers do not have to withhold taxes from employees' paychecks. So on what, then, are the IRS basing their enforcement?

This all leads to the final question. Is the US Code of Federal Regulation the codified law that governs us? Or are we governed by separate 'rules', secret and otherwise, that various government agencies have written?

If we are not governed by the US CFR, then we are not being governed by our elected representatives; we are, instead, being governed by appointed bureaucrats, in violation of the constitution. This sure sounds like an unaccountable police state to me.

N

 

[KOdegaard]

Fest,

Hey, you are on the same page I am. I frequent the tax

honesty pages alot and am always pleasenty surprised

when I run into someone like yourself on an unrelated

forum.

Kirk

BTW We The People are (imho) are leaps and bounds

ahead of others as they are actually DOING something. Oo.

 

[Champane Flight]

go ahead

Go right ahead and quit paying taxes. May I suggest putting some of that money aside. You will need it to bribe the guards.

 

[KOdegaard]

I do not think that would be wise, as bribery is illegal