AmsOil and Soot

[DOWG]

Well, after having read all this I'm not sure what to think, but I know what I'm going to do. I just passed 100,000 miles; I have run Amsoil the entire time (10,000 mile break in with non-Amsoil). I know, not believe, but know, that the cleaner and fresher the oil, the better off the engine is; the heck with the cost of the oil. My engine has no drips, no runs and uses no oil between changes. I changed my oil and filter every 5,000 miles and it turns black quick; a couple hundred miles or so. At 96,000 miles I installed the Amsoil Dual Bypass, changed the oil and the oil is the same color it came out of the bottle; 4,000 miles later. I will now be changing the full flow filter every 5,000 miles and the Bypass at 10,000 miles along with the fuel filter. I'm happy. See ya'll.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK, the THREAD TOPIC is related to SOOT levels, as associated with the "beneficial" use of Amsoil - and *I* continue to ask:





"OH - and I notice that NO ONE has so far replied to my question as to what ENGINE OIL has to do with soot accumulation - since soot generation is a FUEL combustion issue, and has precious LITTLE to do with the brand/type of motor oil in use... "





And STILL no answer, even from the Amsoil guys as to why Amsoil should in ANY way have any particular effect upon SOOT levels seen in oil analysis, since SOOT is NOT related to oil brand or type used, but FUEL combustion... . Whether the soot is "clumped up", or dispersed, is not likely to change much from one major oil brand to another, since soot dispersement is a MAJOR focus of all oil brands specified by Cummins...



I'm STILL waiting - can ANYONE simply say, "there is NO actual significant, PROVABLE, relationship between generated soot levels and lubricating oil used"?



Thank you...

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I guess I'll answer it. I'm currently running extended drain intervals with LE oil and the single Amsoil bypass filter. I'm switching over to Amsoil in the engine this weekend because I'm not that happy with the performance of the LE compared to friends that are running Amsoil in addition to the lesser cost of Amsoil versus LE. If you have an oil that isn't working well you will get wear on your piston rings and cylinder walls, that will allow more soot to enter the oil.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

... I'm STILL waiting - can ANYONE simply say, "there is NO actual significant, PROVABLE, relationship between generated soot levels and lubricating oil used"?...

If I might hazard a guess? If there is no wear on the cylinders and rings, then there will be no relationship.



But consider that, as the rings and cylinders wear, there is more blow-by, thus more soot getting into the oil. Now you should be asking, "What can be done to minimize ring and cylinder wear?" The answer involves balancing each of (1) the quality of oil, (2) the quality of filtration, and (3) the frequency of oil and filter changes



One adequate balance would be to select an oil that maintains its lubricity and additives for a long time, maximize the quality of filtration, extend the time between oil changes, and employ oil analysis to monitor the condition of the engine lube.



Another adequate balance would be to use the best oil and filter you can get for an ordinary price, and change at the manufacturer's recommended interval.



A third adequate balance might be to use any oil that meets the equirements, any above-average filter, and change them every 2K-3K miles.



Thus, I cannot say, "there is NO actual significant, PROVABLE, relationship between generated soot levels and lubricating oil used. " If you are using rot-gut or substandard oil and/or filters, your engine probably is not getting adequate lubrication and/or clean-eough oil, causing accelerated wear in your engine, which can increase blow-by and, thus, increase the amount of soot in the oil. If you are not changing your oil and filter often enough, your engine is likely wearing faster, with the same result. If you are extending your oil changes but not monitoring the condition of your oil, you could well be damaging your engine, with the same result again.



IMHO,

Fest3er

 

[Midnite]

I always thought that some of the additives in the oil worked to retain the soot, keeping it in suspension instead of allowing it to cake up inside oil passages, etc. If that's actually right, then it could be that one oil's additives are more effective at keeping the soot in suspension than another oil's additives.



Either that, or I'm completely confused and in desperate need of stronger coffee...



Mike

 

[Don M]

Yes additive packages are designed to disperse soot and keep it from sticking together.

The problem I have is that guys are going around saying that small micron sized particles dont cause engine wear. That is one of biggest loads of crap I have heard all year.

Yes , the amount of wear is less than the larger particle, but it is still wearing parts. 1 micro size particles rubbing between cam lobes and tappets are causing wear. Yeah I know, the oil has a layer of protection. Yes it does but that layer is not always maintained. I use lapping compound as small as 1 micron and it eats away metal pretty good. Slowly I admit, but it still does.



Modern day soot is much more abrasive than the stuff of yesterday. High injection pressures and finely atomized fuel spray let the oxygen in the cylinder penetrate the fuel droplets to the core and help them burn completly through. Forming a very hard and fully cooked soot particle. A dumb example would be a piece of toast toasted till it was black or one that was lightly toasted.



Most all diesel engine manufacturers have the allowable soot concentrations published and I can tell ya they are not 1. 3 %.

In my opinion the soot level should never be over . 8%.



Soot production in the newer engines was a major concern to oil marketers and engine builders. This has lead to newer oil classifications to help disperse the soot. Its also the reason that Cummins has a short drain interval in our engines. Coupled with the tiny 11 quart capacity and higher soot production of the engine, the drain intervals are set.



Don~

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I suppose the most accurate available test would be to run several top-of-the-line dino oils against Amsoil or one of the other top synthetics for the same mileage, and as nearly as possible, the same overall driving conditions, and THEN analyze each oil and compare...



I'm betting not a DIMES worth of difference in soot levels...

 

[Don M]

The problem with a soot level shoot-out is the amount of wear each engine has. Yeah, soot will slip by older and looser engine rings. Many of the soot detection tests labs are using are lame.

Not an opinion, but a fact from engine manufacturers. Many give a silly number in PPM. Many use tests that are less than perfect.

Oils are designed to suspend soot. Some oils have a better additive package and can disperse soot better. Of course no oil will show a lower amount. They may try to make you think the amounts are lower because the particle counting method is looking for certain sizes, etc.



The soot has to go. Dumping the oil is the way to get rid of it.

Filters, super-duper oil for extended drain cycles, and lab analysis is not a prudent practice to deal with soot loading.



Changing oil is the best method. Extended drain cycles are better suited for engines with higher capacity pans.



BOMB your truck and watch the soot production go up and engine wear increase as well.



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

:--) DANG DRAWSON!!! My engine and I are very glad that I don't let the oil stay in my engine for much past 3k. 57,000 miles!!! What did your engine do to you? Oh well, it is your engine. We could sit here and :-{} :-{} :-{} :-{} all day about this. I think that the best description of proper oil change intervals was given in another thread in the General Diesel forum: "The proper oil, and oil change interval to use, is that which gives you the best warm fuzzy feeling. ":-laf As for the combo that gives me the best warm fuzzy, it is the Rotella T/3000 mile change. I am with Don and Gary- the only oil analysis I need is the "looks dirty, time to change it" method. That is crude, but I completely agree with Don. The crud in my oil that makes it look black isn't going to help the engine last longer. I am not afraid to spend the 24 bucks and one hour it costs me to change the oil every 3000 miles. Whatever. Keep the warm fuzzy going!!

 

[Cummins Corvette]

P. S. - These new smiles are !!

 

[SS]

Originally posted by amsoilman

Keep in mind the numbers you read for my report was with 31,000 miles…. that's TEN TIMES a "normal" drain interval, if you drained every 3,000 miles! So if my soot level was 1. 2 percent at 31,000 miles, it would have only been 0. 12 at the 3,000 mile mark!

Same thing holds true with the "Wear Metals", largest number was Iron at 130. If one takes into consideration the miles again, that is only 13. 0 PPM of Iron for 3,000 miles.

That says everything I need to know about extended oil drain intervals (with ANY oil). By this argument, the 3000 mile drainer would have soot levels of 0. 12% at 3000, 0. 12% at 6000, 0. 12% at 9000, 0. 12% at 12,000, etc. The extended oil drainer would have 0. 12% at 3000, 0. 24% at 6000, 0. 36% at 9000, 0. 48% at 12,000, etc. Same goes for "Wear Metals".



I haven't seen anything that convinces me that the 'perceived' benefits outweigh the 'actual' risks. Do what you want - I really don't care, but I'm just making an observation.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Yep, I see the bragging about all the crud still in their oil and have to say WTF is the point? Is keeping that stuff in there GOOD FOR SOMETHING? Your engine is going :{ :{

 

[JJW_ND]

20K on oil with just Stratapore filters!

Just got sample back with 20K on the same oil. The oil has had a new Stratapore filter (and 1 guart new oil with the filter) at 6K and 13K on the oil with one additional makeup quart. Truck had 186K on it at the start with stock plate slid and used as hotshot pulling stock trailers. During this interval a #11 plate was added (slid forward) with the most hottrodding this truck has ever had but much less pulling.



Soot was highest I have ever seen at 0. 4% (as determined by CTC lab out of Cleveland, OH). Every other sample I have ever had was 0. 1% (lowest reading that is recorded) other then the last sample prior to dumping the last 25K interval. It was 0. 2% with 25K on the same oil. All samples taken every 6K with new filter ever 6K. No Bypass here!



I looked back over the last 30+ samples and 200K miles (wear metals, TBNs, Visc100 and soot). I was on Premium Blue 2000 the first 60K miles (Rotella the first 10K). These samples contain the highest values for a 6K interval (always dumped this oil every 6K). The 15W40 full synthetic had the highest wear metal readings but only after 20 or 24K on the same oil. Soot was never over 0. 1%. Pulled the dog I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER out this truck during this time with turnup power with only stock parts. Pulled lots of loads where EGTs stay at or over 1000 for the entire trip. This is in temps well below zero for most of the winter and temps up into the 100s in the summer. The loads seem to be always the heaviest and longest when the weather was the worst. Did I mention wind!!!



The 5w30 full synthetic has had noticeable lower wear readings as compared to the same mileage on the oil as the 15W40. Only change was going from the Microglass to Stratapore filter when it came out. Loads seem to keep getting larger and lots of long hard pulls and many well below zero cold starts. I think the lower wear (engine how has over 150K on it) is related to better cold weather protection then the heavier 15W oils as I have always had the worst samples in the winter months.



I have had several 6K PB2K samples (oil being dumped every 6K an new oil put back in) the had higher wear metal readings, poorer Visc then the synthetic samples with 20 or more miles on it. Iron was never higher in 6K then it was at 18K or more. Iron has got higher with each sample.



IMHO... hotshotting a stock or mildly bombed truck is very easy on the oil. Little if any soot and much lower wear. Might have somthing to do with getting the engine to a happy "hot" operating temp and keeping it there for 100s and 100s of miles straight. While modern 15W40 "dino" oil is very good, the latest 5W full synthetic oils do better and for a much longer time. Either that or the new Statapore filters are removing much more then the Microglass did.



If you like to see lots of black smoke and make plenty you should you are probably pushing the soot. If you never see smoke and you "RUN HARD". I would not worry about oil. If you are stock and you put on more then 10K a year I would not worry (worry = waste good oil with 2K, 3K, 4K or even 5K oil changes). Synthetcs just let you worry about where your next load is not when to find time time the change oil again.





jjw

ND

 

[Don M]

JJW,



you are correct about the truck runnning down the highway and making very little soot. On the pedal and off the pedal in city driving and plain old hot roddin' around will make much more soot.



CTC uses the best method of soot detection. . IMO.

Wilks Infracal is the top notch method.



Don~

 

[drawson]

Guys this is going the same way as the other thread. i didn't want to start this all over again. :--)



Here is my bottom line... . I Love my truck and I'm doing what I think is best!!! I have been around the Automotive industry for all my adult life, I have been an ASE master L1 technician for 20+ years, I have seen many engine oil related failures and been inside too many engines to count.

What I saw inside my timing cover yesterday just confirmed to me that the oil and filter system I am using is doing a great job. The soot would not only wear the cam and lifter but also the timing gears and my gear looked like they where brand new at 118K and they where so clean. I have made my choice from practical life experiences not based on what this manufactor said or that. I am impressed with AmsOil the product, I don't really like there marketing. EAT'M'UP is going to say on AmsOil until I find something better.



In my time here on the TDR there are a couple of things that are continully battled over Oil and K&N (type)filters. i don't think all this battling evr changes anyone mind and it sure does create riffs between members. A long time ago Joe Donnelly and I agreed to disagree on the trany oil thing. Let's agree to disagree and get on to having some fun!!!!!



It is much funner to battle over what our next HP mod will be

 

[Sled Puller]

Cams anyone?

 

[Don M]

Cams anyone?



Who has a real winner? A said a real winner?



Don~

 

[HC]

OK, the THREAD TOPIC is related to SOOT levels, as associated with the "beneficial" use of Amsoil - and *I* continue to ask:

"OH - and I notice that NO ONE has so far replied to my question as to what ENGINE OIL has to do with soot accumulation.....

Others can speak for themselves, but I didn't answer simply because I think you're reading too much into the title of the original post. To me, it just looked like the original poster, an Amsoil user, was involved in an earlier discussion and was following up on a promise to post oil analysis results showing soot levels in his "extended drain" Amsoil. As I recall it, this became an issue largely because somebody in the Dino camp said or strongly implied extended oil changes were not smart because the soot levels in the oil would be unacceptably high. So Amsoil, frequently associated with extended drains, and soot, which could shorten drains, both got mentioned in the title. I didn't see any wild claims that Amsoiled engines don't produce soot.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

We are going to have to agree to disagree here. :-{}

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by CAnderson

We are going to have to agree to disagree here. :-{}

WHERE