AmsOil and Soot

[Don M]

Pumperdudes oil numbers are very good. The wear rates are outstanding and show that good ol Rotella is more than perfect for his engine. The 5000 mile changes are perfect as well.



Big Toy, as a comparison, when your TDR issue #35 shows up this month in the mail (if has not already) take a look on page 86 at the oil test results from Amsoil. It was not a little bity 17 PPM in iron it was 114. Yes the oil was run for 15,000 miles, but what about all the benefits of Amsoil? Haha!



Rotella has proven itself time and time again. I now see some high iron numbers from Amsoil after a 15,000 mile run. How are the Amsoilers gonna defend this one?

Cant wait to hear it.



Don~

 

[SlyBones]

Originally posted by Don M

The 5000 mile changes are perfect as well.

Don~

Gee Don how can that be? Isnt that past the manufactuers recommendations? Wont that void your warranty? After that 25 pager from hell, and now were suddenly using oil analysis to show that you can extend past the manufacturers recommendations, and its perfect as well. Hmmm.....

 

[Don M]

Thats rediculous Slybones. The recent truck in the TDR that had 1. 1 million on the clock used the same oil, and did the same drain intervals and towed the same as he did.

Can you show me a million mile Amsoil truck? After being in biz for thirty years there has to be one somewhere right?



Schedule A shows every 6 thouasnd and Schedule B shows every 3 thousand. His drain cycles are not out of line at all. If he towed only 1500 hundred miles and drove hwy the rest. 5000 miles is certainly prudent. Its not the same as running an oil for 15,000 miles or more like some guys do. Look in the newest TDR and see the iron levels in Amsoil after 15,000 miles. Tens times higher than his was.



Don~



try again-

 

[HC]

Why am I even responding?????????



Let me see if I understand the rules here.



Oil analysis results that show good results with Dino are proof that synthetics have no significant advantage. Oil analysis showing questionable results with synthetic, require detailed explanation by those who prefer synthetics.



On the other hand, oil analysis results that show good results with extended drains and/or Synthetic are dismissed as "junk science" or "silly little 20 dollar oil analysis". Or, in some cases, dismissed on the grounds that "the By-pass filter will change your results drastically. " (These are direct quotes from previous threads. )



Fair is fair. If you won't accept "good" results as proof that I can go longer than 20k between changes without hurting my engine, then I don't have to spend time trying to understand and explain potentially "bad" results either.

 

[Don M]

Did I say drastically? Check again.

The "silly little 20 buck test" sentence was to show the difference in the high dollar expensive engine tests from manufacturers and a quick look at oil for 20 dollars.

"Junk Science" is what I call extended drains in engines with small pan capacities like ours. 11 quarts is tiny compared to the big trucks that run extended drains intervals. It is junk science IMO to throw out millions of dollars in lab testing, use oils that are not API certified, and use oils marketed in strange ways.



Just opinions though.



Don~

 

[SlyBones]

Schedule A is 6K and Schedule B is 3K. And they have a definition of what is schedule A and B are. And the vast majority of us fall into schedule B. Which is 3K and not 5K.



I dont think his 5K intervals are rediculous. I find his oil change intervals perfectly acceptable. I was not poking fun has his oil change intervals. I was poking fun at you, who spent 20+ pages telling us how we should not exceed the manufacturers recommendations and how that would void our warranty. And then told is that exceeding these recommendations are perfect.

 

[HC]

Did I say drastically? Check again.

Yes, that was the word. Page 14 of the locked Amsoil / API thread.

 

[Don M]

If you go back and read the posts and count the numbers I was less than 30% of the total posts. Someone keep trying to say I was the only one posting on it. Simply not true. Others were posting too. Since I was the one who originated the post I would think I might be somewhat involved in the posting. Wouldn't you.



Learning skills of discernment of what seems the best and prudent practice is sometimes proven to be difficult. Taking an oil drain interval a few thousand miles over and taking one 15,000 or more are too different things.

I submit: The wear metals (iron)were nearly ten times higher in the truck that went 15,000 miles than the truck that went 5000 miles.

One had the benefit of synthetics and one did not. Discernment skills with the emotion turned off, tells me the truck with 15,000 mile changes has a check in the box of higher engine wear.



Can you show me a Dodge/Cummins that has a high number of miles on it from extended oils drain using synthetics?

I can show you several and one that went a million. Back to the discernment skills we go. I can discern the dino oil is doing a great job of protecting our engines after seeing the results from people using it. Last week a guy was here talking about his 375,000 mile truck that he hot-shots with. He used Rotella and the engine was bombed slightly if I remember.



Don~



how many miles do you have on your truck?

 

[DocStressor]

I see this thread just goes on and on. I seem to have insomnia tonight, so here are a few points to add:



1. The rate of wear metal accumulation and the longevity of an oil, either mineral or synthetic, has everything to do with how a truck is driven. Does the truck tow heavy or is it driven solo? You can't compare oranges and donuts. Additionally, different engines driven in a similar way also have different intrinsic wear patterns. How a particular engine is built and how it gets broken in are factors that influence wear rates, but not nearly as much as the load put on an engine.



For example, here are the analysis results from a 2001 HO run on Rotella 15W-40:



The truck had 17,816 miles on it. The oil had 4347 miles on it.

It did no towing at all during this interval. Gly=neg, water = less than . 05%, fuel = less than 1%, Viscosity at 100 C = 13. 8, soot= less than 1%, OXD= 6. 7% of allowed, NOX=less than 1% of allowed, TBN=10. 8, metals (ppm) Fe=36, Cr=2, Pb=3, Cu=2, Sn=1, Al=7 ,Ni=0 ,Ag=0, Mn=1, Si=5 ,B=26, Na=1, Mg=58, Ca=3260, Ba=0, P=1120, Zn=1489



The oil is in good shape and there is little silicon, yet 36 ppm iron accumulated in only 4,347 miles. Compare these with with PumperDude’s results. Same oil. The point is that you can't learn anything about the performance of oils by trying to compare wear rates and oil durability in different engines. You need to compare different oils in the same engine under similar operating conditions.



2. The 0. 1% phosphorus limit for API certification only applies to oils designed for gas engines. All CH-4 heavy duty diesel oils have >0. 1% P (see the Rotella analysis above, 0. 112%)



3. Almost all the P found in an oil is contained in ZDDP, an anti-wear and anti-oxidant additive. It is not corrosive. The limit 0. 1% is supposed to prevent poisoning of catalytic converters in gassers.



4. CI-4 (or CJ-4) oils should become available this summer. See the latest TDR mag.



My sleeping pill is starting to kick in. Good night folks

 

[Don M]

HC, I even learned to use different filters on that same thread. You pointed out that I was wrong in my filter choices for the Cummins. I had no earthly idea that WIX filters were not a good filter to use.

After this, I abruptly pulled the WIX and went back to the ol Fleetgaurds I always used. And who says these threads are not informative? Unlike others I can change my mind and position as more evidence is presented. I make no monies from oil related products and have the ability to change for the better when 'called' or proven wrong. Can you?



Don~

 

[HC]

I even learned to use different filters on that same thread... Unlike others I can change my mind and position as more evidence is presented. I make no monies from oil related products and have the ability to change for the better when 'called' or proven wrong. Can you?

I did notice that you were willing, on some issues, to change based on new information, and for that I applaud you. Can I? Absolutely. I've cycled through a couple of air filter options now, first trying to get silicon down, and my latest in an effort to get back to Fleetguard and eliminate oil residue under the hood and possibly internal to the intercooler. I also don't make any money on oil. I agree that we should be willing to post both the pros and cons of any product, without flaming. You'll find my posts generally "pro synthetic", but even though I use Amsoil you'll also find examples where I point someone concerned about the API cert issue towards Delvac 1. You'll also find me telling others Dino oils are good too or that synthetics aren't for everybody, even while I'm trying to explain why I like them and what benefits I receive from their use. Yes, real benefits, not perceived benefits, that are important to me. You will find me expressing my opinions, but you won't find me posting HAHAHAHA about the opinions or facts presented by others. You also won't find me making comments about your wife; something that was done to you which was over the line and I hope done only in the heat of the moment or out of pure frustration. To some of your other questions (which may not have been for me specifically), I have about 80k now, and will be over 400k in about 6 more years, not the 33 years that someone else calculated. I have heard from a reliable source of at least one Dodge with 500k plus, hot-shotting with Amsoil and 75k changes, but I didn't have a name or VIN# so I've never mentioned it before now. I had a 4-banger gasser go over 400k with 10k to 20k oil changes, M1, which if you consider the "average" life of a gasser is just as amazing as a million mile Cummins. As to phosphorous eating seals, you need to rethink your logic on that one. Pop some Sodium in your mouth, and see how it goes. Then consider trying to live without some NaCl in your body.

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Lee Weber

I see this thread just goes on and on. I seem to have insomnia tonight, so here are a few points to add:



1. The rate of wear metal accumulation and the longevity of an oil, either mineral or synthetic, has everything to do with how a truck is driven. Does the truck tow heavy or is it driven solo? You can't compare oranges and donuts. Additionally, different engines driven in a similar way also have different intrinsic wear patterns. How a particular engine is built and how it gets broken in are factors that influence wear rates, but not nearly as much as the load put on an engine.



For example, here are the analysis results from a 2001 HO run on Rotella 15W-40:



The truck had 17,816 miles on it. The oil had 4347 miles on it.

It did no towing at all during this interval. Gly=neg, water = less than . 05%, fuel = less than 1%, Viscosity at 100 C = 13. 8, soot= less than 1%, OXD= 6. 7% of allowed, NOX=less than 1% of allowed, TBN=10. 8, metals (ppm) Fe=36, Cr=2, Pb=3, Cu=2, Sn=1, Al=7 ,Ni=0 ,Ag=0, Mn=1, Si=5 ,B=26, Na=1, Mg=58, Ca=3260, Ba=0, P=1120, Zn=1489



The oil is in good shape and there is little silicon, yet 36 ppm iron accumulated in only 4,347 miles. Compare these with with PumperDude’s results. Same oil. The point is that you can't learn anything about the performance of oils by trying to compare wear rates and oil durability in different engines. You need to compare different oils in the same engine under similar operating conditions.



2. The 0. 1% phosphorus limit for API certification only applies to oils designed for gas engines. All CH-4 heavy duty diesel oils have >0. 1% P (see the Rotella analysis above, 0. 112%)



3. Almost all the P found in an oil is contained in ZDDP, an anti-wear and anti-oxidant additive. It is not corrosive. The limit 0. 1% is supposed to prevent poisoning of catalytic converters in gassers.



4. CI-4 (or CJ-4) oils should become available this summer. See the latest TDR mag.



My sleeping pill is starting to kick in. Good night folks

 

[Deezul1]

I did an interesting thing today. There seems to be some problems here if an oil is not API certified. I went to an auto parts store and looked for API certification on all of the major brands, synthetic and dino and guess what folks all of the majors have oil on the shelf that isnt certified. It may say API spec such and such but only some have the API certification seal, does this mean that Castrol, Valvoline, Pennsoil are no good? I dont think so. I will use what I think does best and applaud anyone elses choice to do the same.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Wayne - "Amsoilman" was kind enough to recently send me a pro-synthetics SAE paper displaying various properties of synthetic engine lubes, compared to dino oils.



While the piece was generally clearly pro-synthetic, and had MANY charts and graphs supporting the beneficial properties of synthetics, ONE chart was particularly interesting for *2* reasons.



On Iron content, as demonstrated by oil analysis, synthetics are VASTLY more prone to high iron wear numbers than a CG-4 dino oil used as a control comparison - by 50% at slightly over 40,000 miles! I have seen this same tendency on several past posts related to oil analysis on this website as well, where Amsoil and other synthetics allow CONSIDERABLY more iron (cylinder) wear - as well as chromium (rings), especially early on in oil use. In that regard, the dino oils seem to provide far better protection for cylinder and ring wear, up to at least 30-40,000 miles! Which reinforces MY contention that synthetics aren't really the ONLY alternative for extended drain intervals, at least up to 32,000 miles or so under equivelent operating conditions... You wanna "save the environment", and change oil less? You want to conserve your consumption of petroleum resources and still provide excellent wear protection for your beloved Cummins? You can do it with a good grade of relatively inexpensive dino oil - you DON'T HAVE TO resort to synthetics to realize your goals!



Honest!



The OTHER thing of interest in that SAE paper, was the fact that the Iron wear rates were pretty much ignored, and the only reference was to the fact that the synthetic iron wear rate was so "linear" - which it WAS, but at a RATE of greater that 50% *HIGHER* than the CG-4 dino oil it was being compared to! Sorta made me wonder as to the veracity of the REST of the piece...



But Thanks Wayne - it was good reading with few surprises.



STEVE...



Thanks for your comments on oil additives such as the STP I use - I have seen that piece before, and am not too worried about poisoning the non-existent catalytic converter in my Dodge , and have demonstrated to my satisfaction that the benefits have so far outweighed the possible liabilities - sorta sound like an Amsoil/synthetics fan don't I...



I still stand by my earlier statement, that the vast MAJORITY of us will NEVER keep our vehicles, or live long enough to personally benefit from POSSIBLE extension of engine life beyond the average 400,000 miles they are ALREADY capable of with conventional lubricants. And the few exceptions to that view are just THAT - EXCEPTIONS!

 

[PUMPERDUDE]

Why Change Anything?

1 If my engine's wear is minimal -see report

2 If the oil is easily available - find Rotella-T anywhere

3 If stock filters are working perfectly-- Air and oil--4/2/1 kit from Geno's-Fleetguards

4 If I really dont mind getting a look at things under my truck every month or so. (while changing oil)



Oh my Gawd,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I just realized the Amsoilers will throw this post to the wayside. Its skewed you see. I operate a field that produces... ... ... ..... Dino oil. :--) Carry on guys. ya gotta love it

 

[Sled Puller]

Gary,

I agree with you that good dino oils will run well past 3000 miles.



I always ran Wolf's head 15w-40 in EVERYTHING on the farm. Ran 7500 mile drains in my Chevy gasser. Never had an oil related break down.



Pumperdude,



You are incorrect!



It is the ANTI-Amsoil guys that rant about who you work for, or sell what product.

It does not bother us. We are an honest bunch, and expect honesty from the competition also.