Amsoil and the API

[Don M]

More evidence rolls in the more I look for it. After I cut through the sales hype and blather, I have found out enough about Amsoil to not use their products any longer.

My truck now leaks, highly likely from the Scamsoil.

Several poeple have written to me and spoken with me about the base stocks being inconsistant. Amsoil does not seek API approval for their products that are fully synthetic. They only give excusses as to why most of their product is not certified like "proprietary formulas" and "constantly changing to make a better product" Why change the highly touted perfect formula constantly? Patents can protect their so called proprietary formulas. The API could give a rats arse about what they put in it as long as it meets the specs and is consistant.

The big guys from MACK, Eaton, and Cummins all say not to use an oil that is not Certified by the API. MACK and Eaton state not to use Amsoil at all. Period. Eaton goes so far as to release a document knocking down claims from certain oil manufacturers that you can go 750,000 miles between changes. A claim made right here on the forums from an Amsoil salesman to me. Read above.



Amsoil is so close to false advertising in my opinion by using the words "meets API specs" that i have considered getting the attorney general involved to get a refund. Dern fine kettle of fish to need lawyers and such to get a refund aint it? Now try to make an engine or NV4500 transmission claim with them. I got about 700 bucks invested in oil, gear lube, leaky filter apperatus and ATF. All the advice on the leaky filter I got was from MGM. Another Amsoil salesman that types "filters have to be properly installed in order to not leak". After about 20 years of chaging oil I get told how to properly tighten the filter. Never had leaky oil filter before the Amsoil one went one. Is this the same treatment I will get from Amsoil? you guys were more than willing to listen when the sale was going down. Now I get told I cant properly tighten a filter. Not something like... maybe the filter base is warped or not machined flat enough to provide a good seal.

Would Amsoil ever step up to the plate and actually admit the oil may have caused a leaking seal or similar? I seriuosly doubt it.



Don~

 

[LSMITH]

Wayne, can you get me a link to that report or a copy? A date so I can get the back issue would suffice. I am being sincere, just so you know. Please email it to me or post it, whatever is more convenient for you. The more information I have the better off I am.



The rest of you need to take a deep breath and read my posts. I again tell you that I have never said Amsoil was ripping anyone off and I have never said it was not good oil. You (Amsoil supporters) are correct that in independant testing the Amsoil has had a good showing in all testing that I have seen. I am not bashing anything, nor am I asking questions that are negative in context. Defensive posture toward my questions is unwarranted. I have corrected erroneous information in the interest of keeping the debate factual.



I too have been on the noria site in the past and it is the same thing as here, ask a question about Amsoil (research remember) and you get nothing but defensive replies. It seems to me that if you have a vested interest in Amsoil you would be able to provide enough factual information without emotional banter to satisfy the question. I have been all over the Amsoil corporate website and the information I want is not there either. I do have an email into them, as mentioned in a previous post.



The reason I am looking for the information I have requested is this: For extended drains the analysis results are used to trend what is going on in your engine. With that trending you can follow the progress of wear, contaminants, and oil health. Amsoil has indicated that they change formulations regularly, and the supporters of Amsoil on this site and others have said that is true as well. How can you trend accurately when the oil you are putting in at changes or as makeup oil is not the same as the stuff you started with? If the information as to what was changed and why it was changed was available it would be possible, but I have not been able to get that information either.



I am going to bow out of this subject completely. I have no interest in emotional banter or ******* contests, and it is obvious I will not get any information here. Good day gentlemen.

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Don M

salesman to me. Read above.



Amsoil is so close to false advertising in my opinion by using the words "meets API specs" that i have considered getting the attorney general involved to get a refund.



Don~

DO IT PLEASE.

PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH HAS BEEN FOR MONTHS.





And would the Amsoil dealer that stole Dons wife please take her back?

 

[illflem]

Originally posted by MGM

Canola oil boys, yep, I'd take their word fer it .

Gene could you please just answer my questions please?

Originally posted by illflem





I personally have to wonder what Amsoil does when the stock that has the required quality isn't available at the price they need. Do they raise the price of their product (not likely) or go for a lower quality base stock since they aren't bound by API certification? Or are Amsoil's profits padded so much they can use a higher priced base and still make money? Windfall profits when the base stock price is down?

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by MGM







DO IT PLEASE.

PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH HAS BEEN FOR MONTHS.





And would the Amsoil dealer that stole Dons wife please take her back?

Great, I get to spend more money trying to get the few hundred back I spent on it. Looks like I got the same help as when I posted the leaking filter. My wife is here and said something about your girlfriend called earlier wondering if there was a cure for the amsaholic disease you suffer from. My wife mentioned something about horses and broken legs while I was trying to replace my front main seal.



Don~

 

[John]

Originally posted by MGM

For what I'm doing, I need the extra protection, stamp or no, Amsoil is in my engine.

I don't really need the extra protection for what I'm doing with my Cummins powered Ram but I run a quality synthetic anyway... . because it's my friggin' choice! Additionally, I have used synthetics in everything I own for more than 20 years now... that includes vehicles, my ATV, generator, chain saws, log splitter... you name it. Maybe that's why when I sell something, be it a vehicle or anything else I own, people are generally lined up to buy it! Why? Because they know the extra special care and maintenance I give my equipment. For instance, my previous two 4x4s were each sold to the very fist person who looked at them, one of them going at the advertised price, the other for a measily $50. off the $8k asking price.



Personally, I could give a RA about the API symbol, if you can't live without it, buy and use something else (as Gene stated).



SIDE NOTE: in all those 20+ years of using synthetic lubricants, I never even tried Amsoil until a little over a year and a half ago. After its first use in my engine (and subsequent oil analysis by Blackstone Laboratories), I discovered the 15W-40 Heavy-Duty Diesel & Marine had performed much better than the more expensive Red Line I had been using in my CTD. After using some more Amsoil products, I decided to become a "dealer" to get the price break. Amsoil may not be the Holy Grail of synthetic lubricants however, I feel they are very close.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

A comment in a pointer above stated:



"Most folks should read MORE, and type LESS... "



Guess that applies to ME too, but the Amsoil "issue" is one that rings my chimes...



As I travel thru various groups, inevitably, I find SOME sort of revered, up-on-a-pedastal product that seeming demands the unquestioning reverence and worship of the "well informed and more knowledgeable" members. Over in The F-Body (Camaro/Firebird) group, it's Zaino polish - and ANYONE who DARES question or badmouth it is INSTANTLY attacked and demeaned as some sort of lower lifeform who doesn't deserve to live... (THAT was the reason for my "Polish comparison test" section in my sig pointer below)



Here, we have Amsoil - the protector and outright SAVIOR of internal combustion engines



Since *I* see no reason for using a lubrication product that costs 3 times as much as conventional oil, just to POSSIBLY cause my Cummins last even LONGER than me or the body of my truck will, the API thing is not an issue to me - but it dern sure WOULD be if I suddenly found reason to use a synthetic - or to put it another way, if 2 synthetics cost nearly the same $$$, but one had the API cert and the other DIDN'T - guess which one *I* would lay my $$$ down for!



I've tested the STP oil treatment *I* have chosen to add to my engine oil several times over the last 40 years or so, and can give several excellent examples of benefits I have received from its use - My K&N filter has filtered my intake air, and kept the innards of the intake tract surgically clean for over 116,000 miles, and allowed EXCELLENTLY low silicone readings in oil analysis - as has the Frantz toilet paper filter installed on the Cummins.



But I *don't* particularly, or necessarily recommend the above stuff for others, and dern sure don't CARE if others approve of them or the companies selling them - that's for THEM to decide, and the most *I* intend to do is relate my own experiences when the subject arises!



And I dern sure don't talk down to, or ridicule those whose opinion or choice of products differs from my own!



All *I* ask of the "Amsoil pushers" in this group is at least a SMALL bit of restraint and controlled aggressiveness in spouting the "Amsoil company line" and "advantages" of yer revered lubes - I'm sure it's good stuff, but it's NOT for everyone, or every circumstance!

 

[Sled Puller]

Don,

I would love to see a thousand Amsoiled Cummins Rams in front of the courthouse with white sheets underneath them.



And then yours, with two drips.



Case dismissed.



illflem,

Questions have been answered several times on this thread and others, but they are buried in the thread by Don repeating himself about his HORRIBLE expriennonsense.



I ,too, await to hear Amsoil's reply to LSMITH's question.

 

[Don M]

The guys running the extended oil drain intervals against the policy of DC while using the by-pass method may not be seeing all the wear particles they think are. By-pass filters are made to remove particles. your oil analysis can be less than accurate with a by-pass filter. If the filter is removing the particle the oil tests aint gonna find 'em. They are in the filter guys. Copper levels can mean the bearings are going right? What if the by-pass filter is holding the particles? The wear could occur and the oil tests could not show them huh?

Same goes for guys running highly modified or overfueled engines. Soot is gonna be in the oil more than anything and if it aint in the oil. Its in the filter right?

Could someone who does not deal, peddle or sale outta their homes Amsoil products post an answer?



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Gary,

That STP and toilet paper working out for you, eh?

Cool, man, it takes all kinds, more power to you! Keep pounding those Fords!



Oh, Don,

Copper could come from the oil cooler. It isn't the bearings unless all the wear metals are high.



And Don, why are you still asking questions about a product you have no intentions of using???

Same with illflem?



Why do you two insist on starting these wars?

 

[Don M]

MGM wrote:

"Don,

I would love to see a thousand Amsoiled Cummins Rams in front of the courthouse with white sheets underneath them.



And then yours, with two drips. "



This is what would happen. The Amsoil goose-steppers would turn out in numbers and redicule the guy who has had a bad experince with it. Much like this forum. Some of the drips are more than just a drip actually. The daul by-pass filter is leaky. The hoses leak. The main seal leaks as well as the pan gasket. The transfer case now leaks in two places. More than just drips, but hey, who can argue with 1000 Rams that dont leak? I would be hard presed to get a shred of help from a dealer since I have posted my experinences with the products as negative.



The original post was to show that Amsoil is not API certified in their fully synthetic product line. This is still true and will more than likely remain this way. Most manufacturers ask for the API certification to be present on any oil that is used in their engines. You cant provide even that bear minimum with the fully sythetic oil line you sell in any case. Amsoilman flat out mis-represented to me the non-fact that amsoil gear lube is approved for Eaton transmissions and in fact they are not. He went on to state that the lube could go for 750,00 miles when such a program does not exist with Eaton.

My record with amsoil is less than positive. Half-truths and disingenuous statements. Leaks. Attacked for speaking my mind.



Figures.



Don~

 

[Don M]

Gene,



yep your right it could come from the oil coolers. Eaton has posted for public view on their web site that certain synthetic oils have caused premature failure of their oil coolers. High copper levels were detected after using the unapproved oils. Guess who aint approved by Eaton? You guessed it. Amsoil.





Don~

 

[John]

Originally posted by Don M

By-pass filters are made to remove particles. Your oil analysis can be less than accurate with a by-pass filter. If the filter is removing the particle the oil tests aint gonna find 'em. What if the by-pass filter is holding the particles? The wear could occur and the oil tests could not show them.

That's true Don... good point, I asked that question (or stated my same belief) of/to the more knowledgeable oil experts on this BB at least a couple of times... before you were even registered on the TDR BB. That said, I never really received a complete answer to my question(s). However, through my own personal use of Amsoil's 15W-40 HDD&M (using just a Fleetguard StrataPore full flow oil filter), and later after adding the Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass filtration system (using Amsoil full flow and bypass filters), I discovered the subsequent oil analyses were pretty close although, the Dual Bypass system scored a little bit better.



Don, the one thing I do know for sure; if the suspended contaminents are removed by the much finer filtering media of the bypass filter, they are no longer able to cause repeated (albeit, minute) damage as they recirculate throughout the engine.

 

[RBales]

OK, I've read this post from beginning to end and all I can see is we all have a different pinion on exactly what oil is or isn't the best for our beloved beast. I can tell you now with all the arguements on this one thread, I will not tell you what I use because it won't be good enough for some of you and will be better than the rest. The last thing I need is a preacher trying change my views on what product is or isn't the best for the wear & tear I put on MY TRUCK. I use what I use because (1) it so far has never failed me, (2) I'm stubborn. Heavy on #2. I also change my oil & filter every 4000 miles (please, I don't want to hear about that) like changing underware after a shower. Change one, you change the other. I've used this approach since I started driving and it has always worked for me. Thats another arguement for the #2 thing I mentioned earlier. Now if any of you have a problem with this, it's your problem, not mine.



PS still lookin for my . 50 decal.



Bob

 

[GLASMITHS]

Dirty Panties

Now we know what Briar Hoopers' problem is--he just6 keeps digging

 

[Pit Bull]

Great information. I'm conservative so it does not really affect me. Run a stock truck used as a daily driver. I will continue to use Rotella 15w40 (Oil is recommended by my truck manufacture and dealer, I also love the smell after an oil change ) which happens every 5000 miles. I just think it is ashame that the guys that really want to go the extra mile for their truck, often get sucked into using the wrong thing for all of the right reasons. It's kinda like the people that bought Slick 50. They bought it because they wanted to treat their engines better than the average joe. Then later they find out that not only was it not better it might of harmed their engines. I guess it is true, buyer beware!!! Lack of API certification may not deter some from using this oil but if the manufacture thinks it is important "gee" it might be important, at least it is a data point for more research, if you give a sh*t. I don't and will stay with the Rotella which smells like Sh*t after an oil change I love the great information that this site provides. For example, I never new that Amsoil was crap oil sold through a pyramid scheme, until I read it on this thread

 

[GLASMITHS]

Scamsoil

Right on Big Toy

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Originally posted by Don M

The guys running the extended oil drain intervals against the policy of DC while using the by-pass method may not be seeing all the wear particles they think are. By-pass filters are made to remove particles. your oil analysis can be less than accurate with a by-pass filter.

Don~

Don, I run extended drain intervals on Amsoil using stock filtration (I use Stratapore). While the Stratapore is a pretty good filter I think its minimal micron rating is 10, As an engine wears, I am told, a significant percentage of the wear particles are under 10 microns. Stock filtration probably more than anything, protects against those occasional larger chunks of metal as well as ingested or incidental dirt/silicon and whatever other foreign objects are floating around the oil.



My oil analysis taken at then end of my last 20k drain (19,645 to be exact) showed for wear metals:



Iron, 41ppm

Lead, 9ppm

Copper, 5ppm

Aluminum, 8ppm



Sample taken on dino oil (Delo 4000) before switching over



Iron, 38ppm @ 7757 miles



I have been getting very good numbers running Amsoil, so that is what I go with. I'm not a staunch Amsoil fanatic and would change brands in a moment if I though something else was better. But I believe I am getting superior protection over Dino oil and Amsoil is easy to get, it's cheaper than my other option (Delvac 1), and even if I end up spending quite a bit more than I would going with dino oil, it is worth it to me. If I DO end up keeping my truck for 300,000 miles, I don't want a truck with an engine that is 75% used up, but one that will still rock and roll and still deliver the performance and drivability it does now.

Vaughn

 

[danandamy]

This thread is still going?

I think all questions are answered. We seem to be back down to "I use it so you should too" vs "I like regular oil" so please, please, I BEG OF YOU



DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!



Mysticdan

 

[Don M]

Vaughn,



Oil drain intervals are determined by the manufacturer during the developement stages of the engine. Soot loading is a key factor in manufacturer specified oil change intervals. Controlling the level of soot in the oil is critical to diesel engine durability. Soot can cause severe engine wear on lubricated surfaces like cams, tappets, rocker levers, etc.

Fueling levels over stock such as you, me, and many others on the TDR are doing throw this manufacturer data out the window and actually soot the oil faster. Soot is caused from partially burnt fuel. The same stuff that causes the black smoke to roll out the tail pipe. This soot is scraped off the cyliner wall by the piston rings and carried to your oil sump. Upon gettin' in, it rapidly mixes with the bulk oil and circulates throughout the engine. As it does so, it is ground up into fine particles. This soot is a non-classical abrasive unlike metal particals. It will erode lubricated surfaces at high concentrations. DC knows this as well as Cummins. They have set the drain intervals for stock fueling levels and you and me at one time have fueled the engine more and now extended the drain intervals. This could be double trouble for engine durability. Lubricant soot particlas cannot be effictively filtered out by a stratapore or by-pass filters. Therefor, oil drain intervals are largely driven by soot concentration in the pan for diesel engines.

My overfueling has turned my engine oil black with elevated soot levels. Engine oil can only suspend so much soot. 20K on sooted oil is a death sentence to internal lubricated components. Those sliding tappets in our engines hate soot. So much, Cummins specs a different oil for this type of engine.



The best thing a guy can do that fuels over factory levels is change the oil/filter sooner than the manufacturer has recommended.

Then you will have the performance and be able to rock and roll like you do now at higher mileage.



Don~