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Amsoil and the API

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Am I wrong? I thought members used Amsoil even though it was not certified by the API and not approved for the Cummins Engine for the same reasons that they do other things to the truck that are not approved by Dodge or Cummins. Like change injectors, turbo's, air filters that are not approved. etc. etc. etc. Using their truck as a test bed for changes and kind of a hobby, to see how far they can push the envelope, before it breaks and then figure out away to work around the problem so it won't break next time. I can't afford this behavior, but I am glad there are others that can and do so I can learn from their experences. I guess a good question at this point about Amsoil is who has used it the longest? How many trouble free miles using Amsoil? Oil change intervals and filtration? How hard has the truck been used? Etc. etc. I am not using Amsoil and won't since it does not meet API certifcation, but I would like to learn from others experences if this is a good oil and if it has performed well in our trucks. I figure the more knowledge I have the better my decisions will be in the future. That still does not mean I would use oil that is not API certified. I also don't use Doctors that get their degrees from small islands, or Lawyers that have not passed the bar, or fly in planes with Pilots that are not approved by the government to fly that type of plane. I guess I am funny that way. :D
 
Originally posted by MGM





Once again, the questions are answered.



Don, most users are scared to post about their use of any product, because of threads like these.



Gene



Members are not scared to post. Why would they be? Threads like this get some of the facts out there for folks to read. I never recommend anything but what the manufacturer does. You and Riley both go around recommending oil to people all the time. I dont care what brand of oil people use. As long as it is certified by the API. Neither does DC.



I found this today:

The following is a quote from the link that was posted by illflem -



I submitted this to DCAnswers earlier this afternoon====>“I recently discovered that a Synthetic oil I was

considering using is not API certified. They do state in their advertising that their products exceed

the API SJ rating. I am VERY reluctant to use these products in my car without API certification.

Would the use of this product put my warranty in jeopardy (the manufacturer claims it will

not)?”... ... Their response====> “Thank you for contacting DaimlerChrysler. DaimlerChrysler does

specify that the oil used in your vehicle be certified by the American Petroleum Institute (API). If the

oil you are using is not certified by the API, I would recommend discontinuing use of this oil. The

warranty on your vehicle would be jeopardized if a non-certified oil caused damage to your engine. ”



Straight from DC huh? Lets see MGM says its ok. DC says no way. Amsoil salseman or DC? I gotta pick DC on this one.



Don~
 
Gene wrote:



I OFFERED YOUR MONEY BACK, AND I DID NOT EVEN SELL IT TO YOU. DID YOU EVER CHECK WITH AMSOIL?

ASK ANY OF MY CUSTOMERS HOW I TREAT THEM.



another half truth... you offerd to buy the by-pass system back. You basically told me to pound sand on the oil, gear lube and ATF.



PLAIN ENGLISH, IT DOES MEET THEM



It meets them according to Amsoil. Like I said before the student graded his own term paper. The teacher never saw it, so to speak.





HOW MANY OTHER COMPANIES ARE NOT ON THE "LISTS"? PROVES NOTHING

It proves to me that the OEM's wont approve Amsoil products. They are considered by them, just not approved for their use.



NOBODY HAS SAID ANYTHING THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES IN TYPING, OR YOU MISUNDERSTOOD.



Don~
 
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OMG, I found the end. And to think I was going to post a question about documented MPG improvements using Amsoil... .



So, according to Amsoil each time the formulations are changed it is in order to provide the best' product. OK. So, does Amsoil run the battery of API tests in their own labs to determine that the new formulation is superior? Is the consumer provided that information each time? What are Amsoil's tolerances for the base stock & additive packages? IOW, how is quality control handled? Is Amsoil ISO certified? Does Amsoil have the procedures and processes documented & available to personel. All ISO says is "say it, do it, prove it" - document your processes, follow them and then keep the data sheets. ISO has nothing to do with the how good a product is, only that a documented process was followed.



I am a little curious about Amsoil's response to the fluctuating market question posed by illflem.



How about some answers by the dealers on the unanswered questions?



Thanks,

Brian
 
I have let this thread go on for some time, even though it has been somewhat outside the guidelines... Because the thread IS informative... Or at least it was in the beginning, and because as a moderator, I dislike having to close conversations.



Of course, there are times when pulling a thread, deleting it, or otherwise ending it's existence is immediately required. The best rule enforcement on the forums, is when the participants themselves stick to the rules, not when the moderators have to constantly close or delete active threads. I'm going to quote the relevant areas from the guidelines below, and if you read them, after reading this thread, you'll notice how they prevent things from both getting out of hand, and how they keep vendor vs vendor harangues from both flooding the forum with perhaps redundant posts and from becoming the medium for a personal fight between those posting.



If you'll notice, this thread is not closed. If you can follow the guidelines below and continue adding to it, I have no problem with that. I realize that what's posted below IS a change, both from what has been policy, and how this forum has been moderated, so I am just going to take this occaision to try to be informative and perhaps demonstrate the value of of the guidelines. I will, in the future, far more strictly apply these rules, so consider this a "heads up". Thank you for your cooperation.



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It seems to me that there are several participants on this thread that have an axe to grind against Amsoil. The reasoning behind this escapes me. Amsoil's decision not to pursue API certification does not affect my decision to use it in any way. If their products were a scam, they would have gone the way of the dinosaurs long ago.

I use their products for one simple reason: They work. I could care less what DC or anyone else thinks of my decision and I'll tell you why; The truck belongs to me and I will decide what oil goes in it. Warranty threats do not scare me. What I use in my truck does not threaten those who decide to use Rotella or Delo. It appears that those who repeatedly attack Amsoil are somewhat worried, for some reason, that we may be gaining the benefit of improved protection and extended drain intervals at the same time. These attackers must be worried about something because if they truly believed Amsoil products to be junk, why would they go to the trouble to post their attacks?

Again, Amsoil products work, and I have oil analysis results to prove it. That is all the certification I need. Using Rotella or Delo or any other proven oil is also an intelligent decision. Enough already. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
You know, I'm starting to feel really bad for Don. He has problems like RobG, and nobody helped him either.



Don,

Maybe we could have some fellow Texas Rammers come over and take a look at all these leaks from the engine to the transfer case.



And take a look at the by-pass. There could be a simple problem, easily overlooked, we need to give you the benefit of the doubt.



Complaining time is over. Lets get these problems fixed. Who was your dealer? That is always a good place to start. If your dealer was not a Diesel man, I will work with him.



I promise I will help you in anyway I can. I just sent an e-mail with who to talk to about getting your money back--all of it.



This site is about solving problems, not fighting.





Gene:)
 
Gene,



I received the e-mail from you with the gals contact informaton. Thanks.



Not sure what the comparison was between me and RobG. I'll leave it there.



I will deal with my leaks myself. I have already replaced the front gear case cover seal and front main seal when I went in for the dowel pin washer repair. I will remove the tansfer case and repair the leaking output shaft seal and the seal between the two case halves. I removed the dual by-pass filter contraption and now just use fleetguard strat. Pressure washing the undercarriage is just a little time consuming more than costly.



As far as others having leaks I found this in the archives from Extreme1. He is an Amsoil dealer as well:



"Yes, when I switched my '94 over at 148,000 miles, it started to leak. Yes it is most likely due to the oil. It didn't leak before and started almost immediately. I haven't tried tightening bolts (which might fix it) although it could also be the front seal. Synthetics CAN cause leakage in high milage engines. The seals are continuously bathed in a fairly constant mix of (mineral oil) chemicals. Now they are bathed in a different (synthetic) mix. Sometimes this can cause seal shrinkage of varying degrees. In a seal that is marginal (remember, high milage?) it can start to leak. The rear seal doesn't leak. "



He had a leak he beleives was from Amsoil. He only had one instead of 5 though. At least I feel more comfortable in my position about how the leaks got started.



The original post was to inquire about the API certification and the lack of such in Amsoils fully synthetic oil for diesel use.

I still dont have a clear answer as to why. With the 20% growth of Amsoil per year since 1972 I would think they could dig in the piggy bank and get the certification. I was under the impression that some folks may have been mislead by the "meets API specs" and not know that the oil is not API certified.



I had no idea that Amsoil was not ISO certified either.

This certification would not change the formula at all. Wonder why they elected to forgo that one too?



Im ready to drop the whole thing. You did get me started down the road towards a refund. For that I thank you. If the money comes back I wil let everyone know here that it did.



Don~
 
Don

I want to thank you for bring this issue up. I did not know that Amsoil was not Certified and not recommended by Dodge. I was looking at putting it into my truck. That now will not happen since it would screw up my warranty. Thanks again. TDR is great the way information is shared.
 
Just sitting here and couldn't take it any longer. Here goes.



DonM - it really does look like you have an ax-to-grind. If you don't like the product, don't buy it but don't try to convince me it is an "ever changing for the worse inferior product" when it isn't. You also need to bring into this discussion why the many independent labs that do the oil analysis tests are covering up for Amsoil if this product is so inferior. If what you say holds up to any scrutiny, they must all be lying in their analysis reports. And lastly, please name me these many lawsuits against Amsoil that you alluded to. The link only took me to what could easily be an "ambulance chasing" lawyer who has to advertise on the internet to get business. (not saying it is, only that he could be, you know lawyers!)



JConley, Dodge does in fact honor a warranty with extended oil changes if you have documented the oil analysis. I'm still getting warranty work done and have no problems, they know I have extended oil changes.



Fire away,

Steve H.



LSmith -

People do not go after Exxon and Mobile. Exxon Mobile is one company.
 
Steve,



I guess you missed the point. For what its worth the point of the thread was to let folks know the Amsoil is not API certified and that DC and many manufacturers ask to use an API certified oil.

Some guys have posted to the thread that they had no idea that Amsoil was not certified by the API. No matter how it all shakes out in the end... I still got my point out there. Not trying to sling mud here, but the certification does not exist.

It's not a slam. It's a fact.



Dodge may have honored your warranty, but stating they do "in fact honor all warranties under extended oil change intervals" is just not so. Further, since DC asks us to use API certified oil... dont ya have a slight chance of thinking that DC could use this as further evidence to deny a claim? I do.



If you read back in the archives you will see two things... Amsoil is highly defended by the salesmen or the guys who financially profit from it and I at one time thought it was good oil. It may be good oil. I dont have a 3PV to tell me it is. 3rd party verifiers or in this case the API have not certified the oil. It may pass. . it may not.

We wont know until Amsoil belly's up to the bar and puts it through the process.



Two things happened to change my mind about Amsoil. No API certification and 5 suddenly appearing oil leaks shortly after using it.

Having an axe to grind and telling about my personal experiences and the lack of API certification are two different things. Maybe the sometimes less than friendly comments made some feel that way. For the record... I dont have an axe to grind about anything related to oil, period.



The internet link I posted was to show that multi-level-marketing is and will always have to be defended by lawyers. Amsoil and Amway are/were defended by the same attorney.



Going into this I knew that there would fire from Amsoil supporters and salesmen. Every time I see an oil related thread the Amsoilers come a runnin'. Amsoilman (Wayne) only posts on oil related topics. I looked back 6 months in the archives and he has not posted to a single non oil related topic I can find. He seems to troll the boards looking for sales and making claims. The last one he made to me was false. Steve, you tell me how would you feel? How should I feel? Its probably the same answer.



Heavy fueled trucks should never used extended oil drains anyway. Too much abrasive soot is produced and it can reduce durability.



Don~
 
Well,

I finally sat down to read this entire thread. Whew! that was long.



The only comment I have was about a post from Shrimpy (I thought it was kinda funny).



As I am starting to type this I am asking myself, "Self, why are you even wading in here ?".



Shrimpy are you sure you weren't drinking. I usually don't ask myself questions starting with "Self". :)



Just joking with ya.
 
I can't believe I waded through 8 pages of this bull****.........

After all that reading and discussing, I only see one "REAL" complaint with Amsoil. Independant lab tests show Amsoil stands up and performs well and better then others in most cases. Customers are happy, oil samples come back good, motors aren't grenading. Sounds like a good product to me.



The one "REAL" complant I see is from a guy with leaking seals. The oil is causing the seals to leak? Is the oil eating the seals? Is the oil having a chemical reaction with the seals that makes the rubber leak? Is the oil eating the metal around the seals causing a gap between it and the seal? Or does the oil sneak by the seals when they're not looking? mmmmmmm. Or perhaps, someone with high mileage and whipped seals that regular dino oil would not slip through put amsoil in and the synthetic amsoil leaks around the seals? Sounds more like it to me.



I'm not an amsoil cult member or anything of the sort. I have Amsoil in one of my trucks. Why? Because for the use and abuse that the truck sees, I feel better using it. The warranty? Screw the warranty.



As for the API deal. The Amsoil bottle says "Meets API specs". That's the same as me telling you that my truck turns the quarter in 10 seconds with no time slip to prove it. The statement by itself means nothing. If I put that very same statement in the description of a new truck I'm selling you, that truck had better turn 10 second quarters. Why? Because if it didn't, that would be false advertising. Does anyone REALLY have hard facts or evidence that Amsoil doesn't "Meet API Specs"? If you do, please post it here in this mega free for all amsoil extavaganza and send a copy to the Better Business Bureau and such agencies.
 
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yeah, and Slick 50 had a bunch or crap on their bottles too; thats the whole deal. Submit it for independant testing and I'll be back.

I still have 11 months on my "PREFERRED CUSTOMER" thang.



And further, I spent 20 years of my life in the Air Force, thinking that I was helping to preserve the right to express ones self without being intimidated by others, or the gov. Some of these guys are WORSE than Ben Laden and the murder of children they should have done some awful things to instead of putting him to sleep (Timmy!)>
 
I've left this alone,but now I can not,,It really a simple deal Don and you've been called on it before in other threads,,If you DO NOT LIKE IT WHY USE IT?????,,I myself ,as others here have,tire of your double sided ramblings,,On one side you say"it caused my oil and transfer case leaks", along with your DC"warranty voided crap" and least I forget the old"not API" certified problem,,Then you have the other side,the side you never own up too,,You have no warranty on your truck and constantly scream about this "oil" voiding it,,Seems like you never cease to amaze the crowd,pulling up old threads to back your claims,looking for internet info so you can start discussions and least I forget,those who use these products successfully are looked down upon by you,,Real world experiences are not valid to you,just paper lab run tests,,The company I drive for has and still are doing long term tests on synthetic lubes and oils(all brands),,Kinda funny that some of these companies I am involved with are Cummins,Eaton-Fuller and Rockwell,but since it can not be found on the internet by you it will not be factual will it??,,One of the current products we developed and tested for Cummins is now coming out for the 5. 9's we use,,Use your vast research knowledge and can you tell me what it is?,,Forcing ones views and pressuring it on others is something we are dealing with elsewhere correct??,don't you think your "oil" related posts are getting close to this??,,Its like this and its easliy stated... ... "For those who understand,no explanation is needed and for those question it,no explanation will be given",,Ya crossed the line in the sand Don,beware of what lurks on the other side... .....
 
Hammer,



First, I will ignore your last sentence. Please try to remember this is a public forum and opinions should be honored. I dont post lies about Amsoil. Only facts. Please re-read my last post. I have been ragged to death over this topic. Looks like more guys are on your side than mine. The fact still remains that the oil is not API licensed and I still had oil leaks. Bunches of 'em after using Amsoil. What is the problem with me posting bad results from using a product and stating facts about Amsoil. Amsoil by their own words say that licensing from the API is not a big deal. You and many others say it isnt either. Why come out in force and defend against something that is "not a big deal"? If the impact of factual evidence is critical of a product why can I not post it?



On the point you made about warranty. You and I both know my warranty is gone out the window. Others on the TDR still have stock or close to stock trucks that will still be able to get a warranty covered part replaced.





Not sure what you mean about vast internet research. In todays world it is faster to retreive information from manufacturers websites. It is generally current and you dont have to make as many phone calls, write as many letters,etc. Wheres the problem with that?



Im not forcing my views on anyone. I dont tell anyone what oil to use. Again please re-read my earlier posts. I state that I do not care what oil people use.

In your sentence about problems we are dealing over there, did you mean in Afghanistan? If so, part of their problem was some of the people were not allowed to speak out about things. You dont want me to speak out about Amsoil huh? Same. Same!



Finally, here is some more vast internet research. I will provide a link to the detoit diesel website that will clearly state the same things I have been speking out about the last few days. They have a clear explaination of what the API licensing is and the position they take on it.

It is in adobe acrobat pdf. If you dont have it on your computer you will need to get it from adobe for free to view the document.



here are a few sentences from the document:



"A marketer is required to license his oil with the API in order to display the symbol. Be aware that some marketers may indicate their products "meet" API requirements. This is not adequate. Only oils licensed by the API should be used in Detroit Diesel engines. "



Does this not sound very much like what I said all along? What DC said? What MACK said? What Eaton said.



Here is a little more from Detroit: "Hundreds of oils are marketed today, but labeling terminology differs among suppliers and can be confusing. Some marketers may claim their lubricant is suitable for all makes of diesel engines and may list the make and type, including Detriot Diesel, on their containers. Such claims are insufficient as a method of lubricant selection for Detriot Diesel engines. "



On the back of the Amsoil bottle is the Detroit Diesel engine listed? In the sales brochures? The answer is yes, and Detroit does not allow its use. Period. More half-truths and tricky lableing.



Go to the link here:http://www.detroitdiesel.com/public/svc/lof/7se270-9912.pdf



Don~
 
I guess we were all guilty, in a way. We all shot him, we all skinned him, and we all got a complimentary bumper sticker that said, "I helped skin Don. " ;)
 
Don, help us out. You sent us to a link for two stroke detroit engines. What part do you want us to look at? Please be more direct.

Exactly what statement in that link shows Amsoil to be incorrect?



Bob
 
Bob,

It seems all of Don's links don't quite say what he wishes they do.

Of course, if nobody checks them out, they have the desired effect, eh Don?



Still waiting on the Eaton links. Can't wait to see what they say.





Don,

I have offered to help get your money back, I have suggested other Rammers come take a look at your truck, all you keep saying is, "Thanks, but no thanks, Amsoil is not API certified. "



Sounds like Al Gore- "The wealthiest 1%... ..... " Over and over.





You ignore me when I ask who your dealer was. At least a customer number would help.



If Amsoil bought your truck and API ed every product, and ISOed 10,002 tomorrow, would you be happy? Is that what you want?

Makes me wonder your true intentions.







GLASMITH,

Compareing Slick 50's propaganda,( which they had to pay MILLIONS in fines to the FTC for false advertising, FACT. ) to Amsoil's "meets or exceeds API specs" is ridiculous.



Did you fight for the right for some punk to yell "FIRE" in a movie theater?



Gene
 
I just sent in oil samples to two labs Blackstone and Oil Analyzers, I'll know back from blackstone first because they e-mail me the results. I will post results as soon as I get them. Which line is the soot recorded? Insolubles?



The oil in my truck has 57,500 on it right now the last report showed a trace in the insulubles and less than <0. 5 fuel.



I am thinking about changing the oil to the Seri. 3000 5W/30, I'm running the HD 15W/40 right now.



Disclaimer... . Yes I am a AmsOil dealer and I do believe in the product.

As for the API ratings here are my thought... The API rates all the Dino oils(SJ/SL) pretty much the same does this make them all equal?

IMO API is in business to make money like alot of other companies are. If they where non profit it would be alot better!!!!



Don your my bud and this AmsOil thing doesn't change that.....
 
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