Amsoil and the API

[Don M]

Bob,



Im starting to think you did not read the document. I understand the thing is long. The part that gets me is the 4 stroke engine section begins on page 2. That is where the large API symbol is shown. The same symbol that is missing from the Amsoil bottle.

The text clearly spells it out. Please re-read the documnet and you can retract your 2 stroke only statement. On the same page look at number 4 on the first column and read that. The text is as follows:



"4. Only API licensed oils may be used in Detroit Diesel engines"



You asked me to be more direct about where it is stated that Amsoil cannot be used. Following common logic, if Amsoil is not API licensed Detroit states it is not to be used.





Gene,



Again the link said exactly what I said it did. Please install the acrobat reader to get the text and then you can retract your statement as well. I used the links to provide a common text that everyone can read regarding my point on API licensing. Showing that API licensed oils are required by manufacturers for use in their engines. The text is plain and simple. Be API licensed or your oil does not qualify. Amsoil does not qualify. Contrary to popular belief API licensing is more than just paying a fee and testing your oil. Transportation of said oil, mixing, environmental concerns all play into the equation. Amsoil has opted out of more than just consistant product reviews.



Gene, three other Rammers have looked at the truck. And to be fair a Ford guy that was wanting to start using Amsoil did too.

They have seen the damage the oil has caused. Let me qualify my last statement. Damage in this case is to the driveway and undercarriage of the truck. The garage floor looks cruddy too.

The saturday dyno event let the owners of the speed shop see the leaks as well. They got to wipe them up. About 50 other fellas saw the leaks too.



You know who my dealer is... I was very open in telling you the oil was purchased from the internet to avoid sales hassles my older brother has had from Amsoil salesmen. I even asked why Amsoil charges sales tax on internet purchases because sales over the internet are still tax free. Maybe this is another program they do not want to be in. I had to pay the tax.

The Algore statement is stupid, he is now a nobody for being so dern hard headed. He did not read the facts presented him as well.

I do not want Amsoil to buy my truck. I do not care what oil people use as long as it is API certified or licensed. Most manufacturers do not care either what oil poeple use. They just ask that it be licensed.





Oh, please read the paragraph about fully synthetic oils and their use in Detroit Diesel engines that are not API licensed. Its on page 11. Detroit clearly states that non API licensed oils once again, even being synthetic, must not be used.



I will provide the links to the MACK and Eaton websites as well. I gotta find 'em first. Hopefully you will read these links before speaking out. Be aware that I DO read the text and can prove my point. I have yet to make a false statement. I do not need anything other than the facts to prove the API statements I have made. I will show that they(Eaton) do not have an extended drain program for 750,000 miles like I was assured by Wayne. He has been silent lately. Where did he go?



Don~

 

[Bob Riley]

Im starting to think you did not read the document. I understand the thing is long

Oh, on the contrary. But, since it is soo long, I was hoping you could please shed some light on your point.



It does indeed say that. But, then again, Amsoil makes a product (code PCO), that is a 15w-40 semi-synthetic that meets CH4 and is API certified. That certainly does not make them a liar.

In fACT, amsoil makes an API certified oil for just about every application out there, including the new 5w-20 for Ford gas engines. They do make what they feel is a superior product that they do not certify for the reasons you don't seem to beleive.





Thanks for pointing that part of the article out. Saved me a bunch of time. I have a dial-up here at the office.



Bob

 

[Don M]

Dee,



Of course discussing topics about oil should never get anyones feelings hurt. I dont have a personal feeling about Amsoil at all.

I would never get upset if you used Amsoil. I used it as well.



I just wanted everyone to know that the oil was not licensed by the API, I had a terrible experience with it, and high soot levels in heavy fueled engines is a nightmare.



By-pass filters cant effectively remove soot. Changing the oil is the only way to get it done. Oil can only hold and disperse so much soot. After fueling your truck heavy with fuel plate, injectors, etc, the soot level increase is linear.

More fuel, more soot. More soot , more wear. 11 or 12 quarts of oil cant hold much soot. 57,000 miles on the same or close to the same oil is gonna be full of soot. I would send in a sample and get a soot level reading.

I have posted that during engine development the soot levels are of top concern to the developers. This is one of the main reasons that extended drain intervals are still not adopted as habit.

Piston rings take a good beating from overfueling and let more of the damaging soot into the oil as the wear increases. This soot is quickly circulated through the engine.



The newest oil was designed for the lower emision engine for next year. The main factor in the change was soot levels.

The manufacturers know they gotta do something to deal with soot. If I had 57,000 miles on my engine oil I would send it out to two different oil analysers and see what you get. With the fueling levels I have I would drain it and put in fresh. Again, its only what I would do. I dont care what anyone does as long as they follow the API specs mandated by the manufacturers. The mandate is there for a reason.



Yes , we are still buds.



Don~

 

[Don M]

Bob,



You did it again. You did not read or understand my post.

The Detroit information provided spells out as follows:



"Be aware, marketers will even include the words "Detroit Diesel" on their containers. This is not adequate"



Amsoil has on their website, oil bottles, and their sales brochures of their NON API licensed oil in the fully synthetic 5w-30 weights the words "Detroit Diesel" This is just what Detroit has written about in their lubrication document.



They even use the words "BE AWARE"



here is the link for others to read.



http://www.amsoil.com/products/hdd.html



Amsoil IS being disingenuous with this labeling. Just like the other point I have proven about API and "meets API specs"

Its the same tricky labeling and Detroit has called them on it.



Don~



edited for cruddy spelling

 

[GLASMITHS]

Amsoil and API

mgm



No I did not. The sucker should be drawn and quartered; like the sub-human he is--



And so should anyone who tries to, and does mislead people by using misleading statements so their products will sell.



Having said that, the next time Bill K. gets on, why don't you folks flame him some. After all he and DonM as essentially doing the same thing. Can you get a DTT set up by just anyone, no Bill K wants the people to know what he wants done, since he must warrant the product; so DC and Cummins do the same, the want the oil to pass certain tests, and to always be within the ranges set by API. That isn't difficult to understand.



If some of the people that use the product would come through with some solid oil sample info this might help a whole lot. Right now I have Cummins Premium Blue (simi-syn) 15w40. I am going to run an oil sample when I chang, the use Amsoil for the same number of miles, and that will make the difference for me.

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Bob Riley





Oh, on the contrary. But, since it is soo long, I was hoping you could please shed some light on your point.



It does indeed say that. But, then again, Amsoil makes a product (code PCO), that is a 15w-40 semi-synthetic that meets CH4 and is API certified. That certainly does not make them a liar.

In fACT, amsoil makes an API certified oil for just about every application out there, including the new 5w-20 for Ford gas engines. They do make what they feel is a superior product that they do not certify for the reasons you don't seem to beleive.





Thanks for pointing that part of the article out. Saved me a bunch of time. I have a dial-up here at the office.



Bob

Bob,



After going back and reading your post I found two more bogus statements in your paragraph.



First the list published at the api.org website of licensed oils does not include the NEW Amsoil 5w-20 oil. Looking at the Amsoil website it does not show an API license either for that product.

You have once again posted a half-truth. I am not saying you are doing it on purpose, just that the statement is not factual

Second, you say that Amsoil makes an API approved oil for just about every application out there. They only have 5 out of their vast array of products licensed. These 5 oils do not cover "just about every application out there" do they?



Please provide me with the place or link to the API license you propher about falsely and explain why you think the 5 oils your line offers will work for "just about every aplication"

Please remember I am reading what you post. I do have an interest in what you have to offer



Don~

 

[drawson]

The reason I sent in two sample to the two places was that all the ones back from Blackstone have been great reports, Maybe the oil is really still that good but going with the other place will give me a piece of mind and TBN #s which Blackstone doesn't. I have only seen one bad report from blackstone and it was on another vehicle(gasser) and it had a seeping head gasket. i'll soon have a good comparison between the two.

 

[SlyBones]

Originally posted by danandme

DIE I SAID DIE DIE DIE

 

[Don M]

Dee,



Will they determine the soot levels for you? Im interested in finding out what yours are/were.



Don~

 

[Riflesmith]

Once again, if you don't like a product, don't use it. I'll take good oil analysis reports over API certification any day. Amsoil works very well in my Cummins and I trust them. Why? Because if their products were snake oil, word would get around. Image and good word of mouth advertising means alot to most companies, and Amsoil is no exception.



Does anyone seriously believe that just because an oil is API certified that an oil company couldn't or wouldn't change their formulation first, then have it tested later? A company marketing API certified oils could get away with marketing a sub-par product just as a company whose oils are not certified could. The question is, why would they want to? Word would get aound in the form of "don't use that oil, used it and my oil analysis was terrible". This is true regardless of brand.



To continue to bash a brand of oil when no one seems able to produce any evidence that it is sub-par, is irrational behavior IMHO. I certainly don't go around telling everyone that chooses a conventional oil they are crazy for using it, that they are risking their engine to a poor lubricant or any similar nonsense. All of us will use what we are comfortable with, hatred of a company and associated bashing of that company serves no useful purpose.

 

[Don M]

Riflesmith,



Why do you want to continue to attribute what I post about AMsoil's lack of API certification as bashing. I have clearly stated now more than three times that the API topic was the reason for the thread. The fact that the API cert. or license is not held is not the same as bashing. If the fact the license is not held is not a big deal why do you feel threatened by my posting it?

The oil leaks we can leave out. Although the leaks are more likely than not caused from the oil.



Extended oil drains in bombed trucks is another fact that can be proven with some research to be a bad thing for the Ram with the Cummins engine. The research has been done over and over again by every major engine manufacturer out there.



I gotta know, did you have the soot levels checked in your samples. What were they?



API licensing is not something the API just dreampt up. The engine manufacturers, the automobile manufacturers and the oil companies all get together to agree on the specs. Research has lead to the conclusion that API licensed oils are needed to guaranty consistancy. MACK, Cummins, Detroit, etc all have developed their own tests for engine oils. The non API oils cant be considered for the test becuase there is no guaranty the consistancy and formulation is the same without it. Samples cant change in order to have a real world, real data test can it?



Don~

 

[drawson]

Don, Where do they tell you about soot???? I have looked the reports over high and low and don't see the Soot

 

[Don M]

As promised, below is the link to the MACK website. It has a very easily read approved oil list. The companies are listed in alphabetical order. This should speed up the search for dial -up users.

The Amsoil fully snythetic oil is not listed at all as approved.



http://www.macktrucks.com/product_lit/litfrme.html



Follow the links to the adobe acrobat documents.



You will find the Amsoil is not approved in the MACK guidelines Amsoil says they are on the containers of the fully synthetic oils. Amsoil has on their website the wording: MACK EO-L, EO-L Plus and EO-M listed on page here:



http://www.amsoil.com/products/ame.html



and here:



http://www.amsoil.com/products/hdd.html



Amsoilers please read the material with an open mind. The Amsoil is not approved for use in MACK trucks. MACK uses Cummins engines in many of their truck as well.



Don~

 

[amsoilman]

DonM,

I'm sorry to hear you have had so many problems with the use of the oil you have been using.



You ask about soot levels in an oil analysis, well here is my latest taken on 1-3-2001. The oil was analyzed by "Oil Analyzers Inc. " and the soot level is 1. 2. Viscosity is 11. 1 cSt@100 C. (This falls between the Minimum of 9. 3 and the maximum of 12. 5 cSt@100 C. for a SAE grade 30 oil). TBN is 12. 0. Oil is Amsoil HDD series 3000 5W-30 with 31,000 miles on it since it was changed. Truck now has nearly 137,000 miles. This oil was installed at 105,000 miles. Prior to the installation of this oil, I was using the HHD & Marine 15W-40 oil. I also have the by-pass system you say does not take out the contaminants, such as soot.

On another note, I drive a School bus for a large School District (over 225 buses) most of the engines are Cummins, mine included. It is the B Series 5. 9L, and is a 1997 model, so it is of the 12 valve design like my own truck. Anyway, we have had a rash of oil seal failures on the front gear cover. The Cummins mechanic claims they changed to a different designed cover and used a different type gasket material in some of the models. He has been going through our fleet changing these covers and gaskets for some time now, mine included at just 0ver 67,000 miles. It seems when they get around 40-70 thousand they start leaking. They are using Delo 15W-40 Petrolium oils.



I hardly think an engine oil is going to cause a leak. I think it is the material or the design that would cause such a thing. If you are saying the Amsoil caused your seals to leak, there must be thousands using this stuff, as I see every parking space in every parking lot with oil stains! I also own a 99 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited that has had two rear transfer case seals replaced in just over 40,000 miles, and I notice it is starting to leak again! I do not have amsoil lube in it either.



On still another note, you claimed I told you a lie by saying the Amsoil exceed the specs for Eaton and Rockwell. I wrote you a personal E-mail stating why I said what I said. If you still want to see this document, send me your mailing address and I will send a copy of it to you, as I do not like to be called a liar!



Best regards,



Wayne

 

[Don M]

Dee,



I have used the guys at blackstone labs and they do not test for Soot in the engine oil usually. They did not for me.



You stated you are going to use Oil Analyzers. They do the soot level tests if you ask them to. The cost is higher though. 'Bout 5 bucks or so.



Most Amsoilers are not aware that modern day soot in our high injection pressure engines is a very abrasive particle. It is critical to get it out of circulation for long term durability. Many guys send their sample in and report back here on the TDR that "all is well" and "my oil analysis came back perfect" without ever having the soot levels checked. Some guys go ten of thousands of miles with high soot levels in the crankcase. Look back in the archives you will find I reported a great oil analysis without ever checking for soot.



Don~

 

[NVR FNSH]

A couple of observations:



1. API specs/testing are minimums for a given rating and also provide for a range on the constituents, correct?



2. Amsoil claims that API certification hinders their ability to provide the best oil out there yet some of their oils have API certification/licensing. What am I missing here? If Amsoil feels they need API label on some of their oils why not all of them? Are the 'high volume' oils (read largest sales vol) the only ones that get certification because there is a return on investment for those oils? I'm guessing that API certification is purely a financial decision for Amsoil.



I don't have a problem with Amsoil as the 'independent labs' tests look pretty impressive but I am curious about the API certification.



Brian

 

[Don M]

Wayne,



Thanks for your data and oil analysis numbers. This kinda goes along with what I am saying about heavily fueled trucks such as Dee's. Your truck is not heavily fueled. It appears bone stock in your signature as far as engine mods go. I have seen the pictures of your valve covers and can tell you the fueling level in your engine is stock or dern close to it. The 94 auto trans trucks made little power and had small injectors. This equals to lower soot levels. Read my posts about heavy fueled trucks and the amount of soot produced being linear to the amount of fueling you have.



I stand behind my statement that Amsoil by-pass filters do not remove soot to satisfactory levels to win over OEM's.

If you read the Detroit Deisel engine document I provided it will help you in that regaurd.



Wayne, if the document you have states what you said to me here, it is not a factual paper.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31353&perpage=15&pagenumber=3



You say that the gear lube is approved for Eaton/Rockwell applications which allow for a drain interval of up to 750,000 miles. This is the part where it all starts to go south. The 750,000 mile interval you claim does not even exist and Amsoil gear lube is not approved for use in Eaton transmissions period.

Call it what you will, but the statement is not true or could be considered a lie, half-truth, disingenuous, etc. All fit the statement well.



Below is a link to Eaton and their approved lubes list. Eaton, and Eaton/Fuller are included. Please note the intervals and approved lubes for such. The absolute highest interval is only 500,000 miles and under certain conditions. Amsoil does not even make the cut for the 250,000 mile drain interval or the fabled 750,000 one either.

The 750,000 mile claim you made is addressed elsewhere on the site as being a false claim that oil companies are making to people. If you cant locate the document I will be more than happy to provide it to you personally.

Amsoil could have an attorney on me fast for posting the page here in public although it was published by Eaton the document does not directly name Amsoil.



Don~



edit- had to re-boot my computer and could not get the link up. .



its here:



http://truck.eaton.com/na/service_products/lubricant_requirements/approve_lube/

 

[Bob Riley]

Don,

I'll admit when I make a mistake. The 5w-20 is not yet certified. All the other XL lines are and I assumed they had done this one as well. 5w-20 is a very new line and Amsoil was one of the first cos with it available, so they are not sure if they have settled on it yet, to send it off.



Now, product code XLF and XLT 5w-30 and 10w-30 are Amsoil's full synthetic API certified oils that meet

API SJ, CF

ILSAC GF-2

CHRYSLER MS6395 H

FORD ESE M2C-153G

GM 4718M & 6094M

JASO VTW

MERCEDES BENZ AG 226. 1



And the PCO 15w-40 I mentioned earlier which is also API certified meets.

API Licensed CH-4, CG-4, CF, SJ, CF-2, SL

· ACEA E2, E3 · MIL-PRF-2104G

· Cummins CES 20071, 20072, 20076

· Daimler Chrysler M/B 227. 1, 228. 1, 228. 3

· M. A. N. 271 · Mack EO-L, EO-L+, EM-M, EO-M+ · MTU/DDC Series 2000/4000 Category 1 & 2

· Scania Long Drain · VW 505

· Volvo VDS, VDS-2

· Allison C-3, C-4 (transmission)

· Caterpillar TO-2, TO-3 (transmission)



And the 10w-40 synthetic blend, product code PMO

API SL, SJ, SH, CF, CD

Ford Spec. WSS-M2C153-G

Chrysler MS 6395-H

VW 500. 0, 501. 01

Mercedes-Benz AG 226. 1

JASO-MB



And our Synthetic SAE30

API Service CF, CF-2, SH, SJ, SL

ACEA/CCMC D4, PD2

MIL-L-2104F

Caterpillar Powershift Trans. TO-2 and TO-3

Allison C-3 and C-4

Mack EO-L, EO-M

M. A. N. 270

Mercedes-Benz AG 227. 0, 228. 0

Scania Long Drain

Volvo VDS

VW 505. 00



I don't beleive my statement about having an oil that covers most of the ratings out there is a half-truth. If it is, I assume you have several you know of that you can't find above?





Also, if someone can show me how to post an image, I would like to display a letter I have from Detroit Diesel Corp. from Mark Bara, Director of Product Engineering Applications. It specifically states it does not approve or dissaprove of the use of Amsoil motor oil and does not effect the warrantee.



Bob

 

[SlyBones]

Originally posted by Don M

As promised, below is the link to the MACK website. It has a very easily read approved oil list. The companies are listed in alphabetical order. This should speed up the search for dial -up users.

The Amsoil fully snythetic oil is not listed at all as approved.



http://www.macktrucks.com/product_lit/litfrme.html



Follow the links to the adobe acrobat documents.



You will find the Amsoil is not approved in the MACK guidelines Amsoil says they are on the containers of the fully synthetic oils. Amsoil has on their website the wording: MACK EO-L, EO-L Plus and EO-M listed on page here:



http://www.amsoil.com/products/ame.html



and here:



http://www.amsoil.com/products/hdd.html



Amsoilers please read the material with an open mind. The Amsoil is not approved for use in MACK trucks. MACK uses Cummins engines in many of their truck as well.



Don~

Well Don when I read the Amsoil site I dont see where they claim they are "approved" by MACK. They only claim that the product is "designed to meet or exceed the specification".



Your words were "You will find the Amsoil is not approved in the MACK guidelines Amsoil says they are on the containers of the fully synthetic oils. " -- The way I read it, NO they dont.

 

[Bob Riley]

Don, I just got off the phone with Eaton/Fuller. The 5year/750,000 warrantee does indeed exist. It is for specific applications and requires nothing but using a fluid that meets CD-50 specs.



Amsoil Powershift Transmission fluid that meets

Caterpillar TO-4

Allison C-4 and TES-295

HD Torque and Drivetrain

Eaton Fuller CD-30 (SAE 30)

Eaton Fuller CD-50 (SAE 50)



And since transmission fluid does not get certified, show me how it is not approved for use.



Bob