Amsoil and the API

[GLASMITHS]

Amsoil stuff

DonM:



Thank you for enlightening us. This is why I joined the TDR in the first place.



Not once did I catch the hint that Amsoil was bad. Eat up the seals -phttttt we need a lot of posting for that.



What I did get out of the thread is the fact that Amsoil is riding on the back of a lot of recognized companies That is stealing their good names. And according to the guide lines posted earlier, the oil salespeople (man omitted) aught to shut up if they do not have any facts to contribute. Facts. facts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Briar Hopper]

My soot numbers were low, low, low, while running the dual bypass filter system. Even with the PowerEdge and DD3 injectors. However, the soot started to get to be too much for the filters, when I changed to a stock Hx40/16cm2 turbo. The lag was the main culprit. My soot numbers have since come down to a less than significant level since I put the stock Hx35 turbo back on the truck. If you don't have enough boost to burn the fuel, you are going to see high soot levels. Either back off the fuel, or get enough turbo to do the job.

As for the leaking main seals, It's rare to find a Cummins that doesn't have a leak. I have 4 Cummins Ram friends with front or rear main seal leaks, and all use Rotella, one uses Premium Blue. It's a warranty fix, if you catch it in time.

My front seal was leaking before I changed to Amsoil. Big deal. It hasn't gotten worse. I barely lose half a quart per 7-9000 miles.

API certification? HaHa. What does it matter? The oils that Amsoil doesn't get certified are the ones they are constantly researching and improving, a good example is the change from Series 2000 to Series 3000. Cost too much to get it re-certified again and again. Just to satisfy a few loose screws like Don M, out of millions of satisfied customers.

I've seen less tenaciousness in a pit bull, than in Don M. He clamps onto something, gets lockjaw, won't let go even after it's dead. Sheez.

All you guys cowboy up... look closely at the brand on the hindquarters of that dead horse... does that say Circle API ... . No ! It's the API certification symbol! Somebody pull Don away from that horse, he's whipping it so much it's starting to smell... .

 

[Riflesmith]

Don,

I specialize in bolt action rifle work. It is a sideline job for me. I work in a power plant for money, on guns because accuracy is a passion. There is some money to be made, but it won't put food on the table.

As to the soot, yes, the oil is black, but not so black that it is opaque. I can see the dipstick very clearly through the oil clinging to it. The bypass filter is doing its job. A CH-4 rated oil will suspend alot of fine soot particles and keep them from doing damage . That is its job. Both doing their job together equals long engine life AND extended drains.

 

[Don M]

Hi Briar,



Do you recall what the soot levels were? Do you still have the same oil in the pan? By-pass filters traditionally cant remove soot fast enough to support extended oil drains as long as some guys are going. After turning up the fuel all data is out the window and the best thing to do is change oil/filter sooner than the manufacturers ask you to. NO OIL can deal with extended drain intervals in our little bity oil pans with heavy fueling and still keep the soot in check.

You say your front seal was leaking before the Amsoil went in, but mine was not. Would you still be ok if Amsoil was the cause of a leaking seal or seals? Would it not cause you concern that your seals began leaking after you used Amsoil? If the thread was so boring to everyone why is there over 3100 views and more than 160 replies?

Please post me some soot numbers and miles on oil. Can you tell me what good soot numbers are and are not? They aint on the Cummins website that I can find. I do know what other diesel engine manufacturers consider high and the number is surprising.



My horses have been sold for nearly two years. After I stopped packin' into the back country of Idaho I had no need for them any longer. Now I take the feet and the plane to get me there.



Don~

 

[RACE427]

AMSOIL

Amsoil is great oil, I have been using it since 1986 and have never ever lost an engine or an automatic transmission. Automotive Mechanic by trade. AMSOIL works, period!!



A very honest company that stands 1000 percent behind their fantastic products!!!!

 

[GLASMITHS]

AMSOIL WHAT GIVES???

It was my intention not even to look at the computer this evening;

I'll just re-read the last issue of the TDR; kinda skim through it like. Did enjoy the articles on guages, and about lift pumps,... ... .

I also looked closely at two ads by an oil co. I'll post without comment, you decide.



Four Ball Wear test(wear scar)



page 37, issue 34 page 111, issue 34



Delvac 1 synthetic 5w-40 0. 431 0. 646



Cummins premium Blue 0. 707 0. 625



Rotella T 15w-40 0. 683 0. 636



Delo 400 15w-40 0. 599 0. 620



Both ads stated "As tested by an independent lab Jan 1996. "

 

[Briar Hopper]

Read it again, Don. My soot numbers went back to normal after re-installing the Hx35 turbo. MEANING: the dual bypass CAN, and DOES , keep up with the soot. Because I have enough turbo boost to burn most of the fuel I'm running!

No, not the same oil in my sump. I drained it to be safe. Original soot # for the very first sample, with stock Hx35, and DD3's, and PowerEdge, was <1. 0 PPM.

AFTER the Hx40, it went up to 3. 1. It is now back down to <1. 0 after 6000 miles on this sample.

Twin turbos or Piers new Hx40, or Kurt's B1 will provide enough boost without lag, to burn more fuel and make less soot. If that's still not enough, you are overfueled to the extremes, and need to be changing oil every 3000-5000 miles.

It's not just the soot #'s you look at. You also need to look at the viscosity and TBN. If those change for the worse, along with elevated soot, it's time to drain.

You're so focused on dual bypass systems being used for extended oil drain intervals. EXTREME oil drain intervals. I don't run extended intervals, I go by the oil analysis and my own judgement as to when to drain. The dual bypass systems have the added benefit of extra filtration protection. The synthetic protects my engine on cold starts, and hot towing, and protects the turbo bearings.

The Amsoil could not have caused your leaks, the holes were already there, it just found the holes a lot faster and easier than dino would have . Which is a shame, but any synthetic can do that, whether it's API rated or not. The synthetic flows a thousand times easier than dino does. Put a bottle of Rotella, and a bottle of Amsoil in the freezer overnight. Pour them out in a pan, see which one pours a lot faster. Pour one in your right ear, pour the other in your left ear, see which one comes out your nose faster. This is logic any mechanic could understand.

NO OTHER SEALS OR GASKETS on my truck are leaking, AFTER 60,000 MILES of synthetics. If they were, too bad, I'd have to change them(if I felt like it, and got tired of checking levels more often), then fresh Amsoil goes right back in it, whether it's engine, axle, transmission, or transfer case. Or run it until it's losing a quart a WEEK. Oh yeah, almost forgot. My steering gear box is leaking. That's the only place on the truck that doesn't have synthetics in it !!!

As for you going to Idaho, why the plane, or on foot? Doesn't the Aryan Nations compound have a driveway, with a security gate? You could just drive in.

 

[dalton4]

Don M, I agree with what you're saying about the API certification issue. Only API certified oil will be used in my motor. I don't say this as a put down to Amsoil or any other brand without the seal. I just want to be assured that my oil is certified in meeting a required standard.



Jerry

 

[Don M]

Briar,



Im sorta wondering, last I heard soot was expressed as a percentage not in parts per million. Please explain.



read the following words carefully please:

Overfueled trucks with extended oil drain intervals whether with a by-pass, daul by-pass or plain old filter from Wal-mart should not use extended drain intervals in MY opinion. Only an opinion Briar, only an opinion!

I came to this opinion from studying the lubricant requirements from many engine manufacturers and reading their requirements for regular scheduled and extended drain intervals. Soot is one of the biggest concerns that oil makers face in formulating engine oils.

I posted earlier that soot is linear to fueling levels. By-pass filters are capable of trapping and holding soot. I never said they cant. I also believe that by-pass filters can outperform full flow filters in soot removal. My problems is, no by-pass or extended drain cycle was developed for overfueled engines. I see your point in trying to combat soot levels with oil analysis. Trying to stay ahead of the game, so to speak. Trying to be sure the soot is in check before it reaches levels too high read from a sample.



I wont say another word about by-pass filters and soot levels. I will let you think about it for awile and you can come back and make all the silly comments about Idaho you please.

Things I would like you to consider before posting:

1. By-pass filters do not instantly remove soot from engine oil.

2. By-pass filters can make oil analysis seem better than it actually is by holding particles in the filter media.

3. Soot levels are linear to fueling

4. Soot produced during combustion is scraped from the cylinder walls by the piston rings and moves into the oil pan. There it is quickly circulated through the engine way before it is ever filter from by-pass or full flow filters.



Please tell me... was the soot expressd in parts per million or as a percentage? Do you know the acceptable levels for soot in your Cummins engine?



Don~

 

[illflem]

Don, one important point you missed is that elevated soot levels will skew oil analysis results if the soot levels aren't taken in consideration with certain types of oil analysis methods. If the oil is analyzed using a spectrometer (common method) the soot creates shadows that block true readings. Any oil analysis that doesn't show soot levels, most often in percentage, is basically a waste of money.

 

[drawson]

Some food for though on this... . Over Fueling!!!! one of the most over fueling bombers here on the board(and possibly in the world) hasn't jumped in here. And until he went to the twin turbos he was running AmsOil with a bypass set up. Who am I talking about = HVAC.



Ok here is my take on API and there ratings... Let's take the gasser rating of SJ... OK here you have almost all the brands of oil out there Quaker State, Pennz Oil, Valvoline, Kendall, Castro, Haviline(sp), Mobil(not1) ect. And even some very cheap brands all carry the API rating. Are all these oil the same??? NO But they do have the exact same ratings. My point to be quite frank there are some of these oil I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but they are all rated fine by API.



I am not saying that i know it all, but in the 16 years that I was an ASE Master L1 tech working on vehicles I saw the bad and the good of some of these brands. API says there all good.



If having an API certed oil make you sleep better at night so be it, GREAT. I guess the way I see it is like from the show "Tommy Boy" I could take a I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER in the box(bottle) and put a warrantty(API) on it, but don't you really want a good American product built in America by Americans!!!!!



I think we outa all agree to disagree and get on with life. You guy where really busy today I posted at 7:30 my time and that was back on page 9 all I can says is WOW .



I will start a new thread as soon as i get results back on my oil on the soot levels.



Night all



Dee

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by drawson

Ok here is my take on API and there ratings... Let's take the gasser rating of SJ... OK here you have almost all the brands of oil out there Quaker State, Pennz Oil, Valvoline, Kendall, Castro, Haviline(sp), Mobil(not1) ect. And even some very cheap brands all carry the API rating. Are all these oil the same??? NO But they do have the exact same ratings. My point to be quite frank there are some of these oil I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but they are all rated fine by API.

I guess we need to set the record straight on just what the API Engine Service Categories system is. The API category (SJ, CH, etc. ) delineates (among other things) minimum acceptable performance standards the oil must meet. In other words, the oil must clear this bar - if it exceeds it, so much the better.



So, where do these standards come from? Quoting from the STLE (Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers) Lubrication Guide:



Quote



API Engine Service Categories:



For many years the American Petroleum Institute (API) provided a classification system that was related to engine operating conditions. The last version of that system included two classifications for gasoline engine service (MM and MS) and three classifications for diesel service (DG, DM and DS). However, while the system described engine operating conditions, it did not provide any definition of the oil performance necessary for satisfactory operation under these conditions. As a result, many manufacturers and users found it necessary to supplement the system with individual company and military specifications. To overcome this problem, API, ASTM (American Society for Testing and Measurement) and SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) cooperated in the development of a substantially revised system that was first published in 1970 (i. e, the currently used S_ and C_ system - id est added by me for clarification. )



The revised system endeavors to overcome the objections to the previous system. It provides for each category a simple letter designation to use for reference, a description of the engine service covered, and a description of the necessary oil performance properties for that service in terms of minimum performance levels (emphasis mine) in recognized engine tests.



End Quote



Rusty

 

[Don M]

illflem,



You are correct in your statement about spectrometry.

Further, the centrifuge metheds can be skewed by other contaminants in the oil spun out as well.

The newest method of Infrared detection seems the best and fastest way to get it done. Part of my point is... most guys dont know that soot is even a problem. They run by-pass filters that filter out alot of the evidence and the wear metals are skewed by the by-pass filters too. The wear could be occuring and they may not detect it. Soot not expressed in a percentage IS meaningless. Manufacturers have a level of soot they feel is acceptable and it is always expressed in a percentage. Not a PPM.



Guys that analyize their oil and report back "great results" may never even consider the soot levels or know what an acceptable level is.



I recently did a quick, uncontrolled test of oil in my garage using a paper towel. It is not perfect, but gives me an idea of how many solids of carbon are in my oil. I took a sample of oil from the dipstck and placed in on the towel. You would not believe the amount of solids that were left behind as the oil migrated away from the particles. It was dramatic. I left it overnight to return the next day and see the results. The oil only had about 1500 miles on it. I am running very high fueling levels. This further helped me see the increased soot levels.



Don~

 

[NVR FNSH]

Don M,

What is the Cummins acceptable soot level for the ISB? Who is using the infrared method for oil analysis? I'll be sending off a sample in the near future (a gentlemen's bet between Gary & myself - see the paper towel filter thread) and want the most accurate data.



Since somebody else commented on Idaho & white supremicsts(sp?) does that mean it's no longer a generalization



RustyJC - you took the words out of my finger tips: MINIMUM requirements



Brian

 

[Don M]

Brian,



Good one. Your a pretty smart fella.

'Bout all I can say is... Im not an Aryan Nations supporter.



Do we actually agree on something here? In part? API?



I want to wait for Briar and others to answer the soot level question I have posed. Acceptable soot levels are different for extended drain intervals and regularly scheduled.



what is your profession? I thought you were an engineer. Im a correct?



Don~

 

[Riflesmith]

Don,

I have already posted my soot levels, you simply chose to ignore them beacause they do not reinforce your position. My oil is not opaque due to soot loading. My soot levels are OK for continued use of the oil. My TBN readings are always above 11. My metal contaminant concntrations are low. All is well.

 

[Don M]

Riflesmith,

I did not ignore them... I just dont see how they could be zero.

Soot is produced everytime a piston fires off. The soot is there. Im not calling you a liar. I just dont understand how the levels could be zero. Perhaps I missed something.

Do you know the type of test the soot was checked using?



Please go back and read where I posted that by-pass filters are not considered as good enough to extend drain intervals past their recommendations. I never said they dont work. I think they skew results because they retain particles, thus the particle is not detectable in the oil.





Don~

 

[Riflesmith]

Don,

If the vast majority of the soot is removed by the bypass filter, where is the problem? I don't think soot removal "skews" analysis results at all. The filter is simply doing the job of keeping the oil pure, contaminants in the filter. Having filters "retain particles"(your words) is a VERY positive thing. Does a bypass filter result in a different oil analysis than you would get if you did not run one? Certainly. But trapping contaminants in ANY filter, full-flow or bypass, results in fewer circulating contaminants and CLEANER oil to all parts of the engine.

I will await your explanantion of how this is bad for an engine.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

What determines drain interval is . . Contamination and viscosity. The bypass filters remove contaminants to prevent viscosity breakdown.



When oil is dirty it comaters to using a dirty cloth. . the dirt in the cloth cuts the fibers reducing the life of the cloth. Its the same with oil, if you keep it clean it maintains viscosity much, much longer. Barring problems w/thermal breakdown it can last indefintely.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Don M

Brian,



Good one. Your a pretty smart fella.

'Bout all I can say is... Im not an Aryan Nations supporter.



Do we actually agree on something here? In part? API?



I want to wait for Briar and others to answer the soot level question I have posed. Acceptable soot levels are different for extended drain intervals and regularly scheduled.



what is your profession? I thought you were an engineer. Im a correct?



Don~

I'm kinda scared here Don - we may actually agree..... I'm not so much concerned about Amsoil having API certification (their test data looks pretty good IMO) as I am about their consistency. Changing formulations makes me nervous. That, and the fact that DC requires API Certified oil for warranty.



Not sure I follow why the acceptable soot level will change between standard & extended drain intervals? I'm guessing it's because an oil designed for extended intervals can 'hold' more soot w/o failing the API test for a given rating. Although this would require an extended drain test to determine. I'm starting to confuse myself



"I think they skew results because they retain particles, thus the particle is not detectable in the oil. " - Don M



If the filter is retaining particles it is doing it's job. Now, where the filter is in the circuit and whether the oil analysis method is capable of detecting/measuring soot is a different issue.





Honestly, I wasn't trying to make Idaho sound bad. It's just that Coeur D'Alene seems to have more than it's fair share of white supremecists & was an easy, ok - cheap, shot at rrausch. I posted that w/o even realising you live in Idaho.



Yes, I'm a mechanical engineer by education/profession. Went to Cal Poly, SLO. Current job is Product Mfg Engineer for Agilent (split from HP). Our group is responsible for the DFM, all aspects of tooling, supplier mgt, etc, etc on sheetmetal, machined, die cast, injection molded, extruded et al (mechanically fab'd) parts.



Brian