Amsoil not API certified

[fj40charles]

>>>The two Amsoil Diesel Synthetics also carry the latest API ratings of CI-4/SL as well just to keep everythng in perpsective.



Does this mean that two Amsoil Diesel Synthetics are API certified or is it a recommendation?



I'm not doubting the quality of Amsoil since I use their Series 2000 75W-140 gear lube in the diffs of my truck. I just don't see the value for using it in the engine since many trucks have gone

500K to over 1,000,000 miles on plain old dino oil and i'm BOMBED and live in the south.



I think Amsoil should certify their oil like the rest of the oil companies so discussions like this would not come up. . Yes, I know it is a cost thing.



Charles

 

[gsbrockman]

Pit Bull :

I think I'd do a regular oil change (including filter) and then do a "drain & fill--engine oil only--no filter" after 2000 miles before I'd spend $39. 60 on synthetic oil---not flaming the synthetic oils, but I'd have to get some substantial improvement in mpg before I'd switch permanently. I would be willing to try the Extreme 5W40 one time during winter months just to satisfy my own personal curiousity----just my $. 02 worth... ...

 

[Riflesmith]

As has been explained before(over and over again), Amsoil's decision not to certify with API is not a cost based decision. API requires specific additive chemicals in engine oils to obtain certification. The concentration of these additives must fall within a specified range, not too low, not too high. The reason for this has as much to do with avoiding the fouling of catalytic converters as anything else. The new SL rated oils contain much less zinc-phosphate anti-wear agent than the previous SJ rated oils. API is catering to the auto companies that have to warrant emission devices for 150,000 miles.



How does reducing the amount of anti-wear agent benefit the consumer?



Amsoil is not willing to be dictated to by any agency. They put an additive package together that serves the customer, not the EPA or API. They have built their business by making fine products and letting the results people get with their oils sell their products. Word of mouth advertising is very powerful and a good reputation is hard to earn, just as hard to maintain.



If Amsoil was lying about their product quality, we would not be having this discussion. The company would have gone the way of the Dodo long ago.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Riflesmith



The new SL rated oils contain much less zinc-phosphate anti-wear agent than the previous SJ rated oils. API is catering to the auto companies that have to warrant emission devices for 150,000 miles.



How does reducing the amount of anti-wear agent benefit the consumer?

Interesting comment. So are you saying that you might be better off with a Rotella T 15-40 that is SJ rated than a new synthetic that is SL rated?

 

[Texas Diesel]

Originally posted by Riflesmith

Amsoil's decision not to certify with API is not a cost based decision. Speculation

How does reducing the amount of anti-wear agent benefit the consumer? We dont know enough about the complete additive package to draw such a conclusion



Amsoil is not willing to be dictated to by any agency. They put an additive package together that serves the customer, not the EPA or API. Their gasoline oils are API certified



They have built their business by making fine products and letting the results people get with their oils sell their products. Word of mouth advertising is very powerful and a good reputation is hard to earn, just as hard to maintain. Read my above post about arbitrary testimonials



If Amsoil was lying about their product quality, we would not be having this discussion. The company would have gone the way of the Dodo long ago. Slick 50 got away with it until the FTC investigated I'm not at all comparing Amsoil to Slick 50, only trying to make the point that just because a product stays on the market does not mean all is well

My original post had this intention:

Amsoil is not API certified. Period. No matter who likes or dislikes it the FACT remains the same. DC REQUIRES API certified oil, which Amsoil is not. Period. Technically your 100,000 engine warranty is void when you use Amsoil. Priod. Amsoil should ceritfy their oil for Diesel applications like Amsoil Gasoline oil is ceritfied. It may be the best thing since sliced bread, but without certification there is a potential problem that potential Amsoil customers have a RIGHT to know in advance.



I have five conclusions:



It is not API certified.

Certification is required for warranty.

A four ball wear test does not prove anything.

I wish there was some hard data available, I would use it then.

Testimony of users is not substantial enough to prove it's value.



Everybody take it easy, this is a discussion about motor oil, nothing more, lets enjoy exchanging ideas.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Riflesmith sez:



"The new SL rated oils contain much less zinc-phosphate anti-wear agent than the previous SJ rated oils. API is catering to the auto companies that have to warrant emission devices for 150,000 miles.



How does reducing the amount of anti-wear agent benefit the consumer? "





PERHAPS by providing adequate wear protection at the RECOMMENDED drain intervals, while STILL providing protection to the Catalytic converters, thus ALSO protecting the customer's warranty - UNLIKE some synthetics that insist on doing it "their way", refusing to be certified, and thus potentially VOIDING the customer's warranty?



Do ya think?



WHAT sort of "service" is provided to a customer, if by arguably delivering reduced engine wear, VOIDS the customers exhaust system warranty?



What advantage is it to the customer if he perhaps gets another 50,000 mile outta the ENGINE, but must pay for several catalytic converters outta his own pocket?

 

[WadePatton]

quote:



I'm not at all comparing Amsoil to Slick 50, only trying to make the point that just because a product stays on the market does not mean all is well.

___________



On that point: About 15 years ago two major universities (Michigan and Georgia I think) researched the effectiveness of "deer whistles". They both came to the same conclusion--TOTALLY WORTHLESS. (I'll explain in PM or Other if you must know why) I read about this is a major deer hunting publication and I'm sure it was printed elsewhere. BUT you can still buy the silly things at any department store.





Nothing against Amsoil. I'm on their side, even thought I've never used the stuff. I used to use Mobil 1 exclusively and synthetics in the gearbox always.

 

[Riflesmith]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Riflesmith sez:



"The new SL rated oils contain much less zinc-phosphate anti-wear agent than the previous SJ rated oils. API is catering to the auto companies that have to warrant emission devices for 150,000 miles.



How does reducing the amount of anti-wear agent benefit the consumer? "





PERHAPS by providing adequate wear protection at the RECOMMENDED drain intervals, while STILL providing protection to the Catalytic converters, thus ALSO protecting the customer's warranty - UNLIKE some synthetics that insist on doing it "their way", refusing to be certified, and thus potentially VOIDING the customer's warranty?



Do ya think?



WHAT sort of "service" is provided to a customer, if by arguably delivering reduced engine wear, VOIDS the customers exhaust system warranty?



What advantage is it to the customer if he perhaps gets another 50,000 mile outta the ENGINE, but must pay for several catalytic converters outta his own pocket?

Hmmm... . define adequate wear protection. I want all I can get, not only as much as the API and EPA will let me have. There are still many of us that live in areas that do not require annual emissions testing. I couldn't possibly care less what comes out of my tail pipes. Emission control system warranties mean nothing to me. This applies to MANY other people out there as well. Will your next post explain how much cheaper it is to overhaul engines that it is to buy catalytic converters?



As Steve St. Laurent's first post in this thread explained, in spite of having high levels of zinc phosphate additives, engines running on Amsoil typically have low emissions anyway. This is due to the extremely low volatility of Amsoil products.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

SHUCKS, *I* wouldn't worry too much about zinc byproducts in MY exhaust system either - *I* don't HAVE a catalytic converter!



Still, that's just ME - and I was merely responding to the question previously asked about wear additives... I think I covered it decently...



Sorta interesting tho - lotsa fellas knock additives like STP as being "snake oil" - yet it's major wear-reducing ingredient is ALSO a zinc additive, presumably for the same reason Amsoil uses the stuff in THEIR formula...



Guess one fellas' "treasure" is another fellas "snakeoil"...

 

[GLASMITHS]

Gary-Are you suggesting that Rosemella and a can of STP would be just as good as AMSOIL??



(I use factory fill)

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Texas Diesel
My original post had this intention:
Amsoil is not API certified. Period. No matter who likes or dislikes it the FACT remains the same. DC REQUIRES API certified oil, which Amsoil is not. Period.

And my first post in this thread quoted the service manual (1998) which does not say that API certification is *required*, it says that it *should* be used - not *must*. The only requirement is that lubes meet or exceed API specifications. Thus, based on my reading of the service manual, Amsoil does *not* void the warranty.

Fest3er

 

[fj40charles]

Begin quote:



>>>And my first post in this thread quoted the service manual (1998) which does not say that API certification is *required*, it says that it *should* be used - not *must*.



The only requirement is that lubes meet or exceed API specifications. Thus, based on my reading of the service manual, Amsoil does *not* void the warranty



End quote:



Without API certification, Amsoil CANNOT say it meets or exceeds

DC specfication... I guess they can claim that it does, but without the API certification, there is no proof and as result, were having these discussions.



Charles

 

[andrewkoperdak]

I run Amsoil HD diesel and marine oil 15W40 in my truck. Recently I could not get my oil shipped fast enough. I had to change my oil I was past 6K miiles on it. So I put in delvac 15w-40. What I noticed is that my water jacket heated up faster and my running water temp was about 5 degrees F higher than with Amsoil. This is all the evidence I need to prove that Amsoil is doing more for me than an API certified oil. When I had my Valve cover off at 25K miles there wasn't anything that would lead me to believe a problem existed.

On another note. When I drove a commercial Tractor trailer we used non API certified synth oil also. Think the industry would risk their equipment? I think not.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by AKoperdak

I run Amsoil HD diesel and marine oil 15W40 in my truck. Recently I could not get my oil shipped fast enough. I had to change my oil I was past 6K miiles on it. So I put in delvac 15w-40. What I noticed is that my water jacket heated up faster and my running water temp was about 5 degrees F higher than with Amsoil. This is all the evidence I need to prove that Amsoil is doing more for me than an API certified oil.

Just curious What would that 5 degree increase in water temp do to your engine?

 

[andrewkoperdak]

Pit bull,

Several things come to mind Pit. Increased engine wear, decreased engine life (long term) and decreased oil life. Ya Ya it is 5 degrees coolant temp but I think that would equate into something like 75 to 100 degrees block temp. I am always weary of that 1250 soft piston temp. The further I can stay from it the better.

Anyway, I just wanted to give a temperature perspective as friction is a function of oil performance.

have a good one Pit

 

[Pit Bull]

Good points, thanks for the reply. I am going to try some synthetics in mine for the winter, I'll see what difference I notice.

 

[amsoilman]

Here is a "Quote" directly from Amsoil Inc.



AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of . 10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than . 10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed.



Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not



1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.



2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.



Warranties And API Licensed Motor Oils



Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes. To be specific, they cannot deny to fix your broken radio, faulty valve or cracked piston because you used an AMSOIL

non-API licensed motor oil, or because you've gone more than 3000 miles since your last oil change. Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. All courts of law will find against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans. If any automobile dealership

insinuates that your warranty will be void if you use AMSOIL products or utilize extended drain intervals, let AMSOIL INC. know the name of the Dealership, the address, the owner's name and the name of the employee that made this statement. Mail to:



AMSOIL INC.

Attention: Technical Services Department

AMSOIL Building

 

[Texas Diesel]

I wonder why Amsoil licenses their gasoline engine oil if this is true:

Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.



2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.

_________



RE:"Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes"

Your warranty is not in jepoardy because of the BRAND of oil but rather because it is NOT API certified as setforth in the owners manual



_________



"all have greater than . 10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed. "



This is a real good reason not to use it in the transmission because phosphorus is harmful to yellow metal (synchronizers)





The main issue hasnt changed, Amsoil's deisel engine oil (2000/3000) do NOT have API certification. Your waranty REQUIRES API certification which has NOTHING to do with what brand it is. Per the manual:"In diesel engines, use an engine oil that conforms to API service grade CF-4 or CG-4/SH... " Pagr 0-4, 2001 service manual. Clearly Amsoil does not meet that requirement. It may be the best oil on the planet but it does not meet the spec's required for warranty.



Amsoil's gasoline engine oils have API certification and are warranty compliant.

 

[fj40charles]

Amsoil oil for gassers might be certified since there is a larger market than the heavy duty diesel oil. Just how many of these Jiffy Lube places do you think would be using Amsoil oil for gasser if it was NOT API cerified.



Also, the burden of proof to obtain warranty work from DC would be upon you in the court of law. This is the exact position Banks has said about their products not voiding your warranty. I don't think many folks on this board would go through the trouble and/or have the money to sue DC should they experience an oil related failure.



Also, how is it that low phosphorous content (as proposed by Amsoil) is okay for gassers, but not good enough for diesels?

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Look at the Amsoil website and you'll find that they have both API certified and non API certified oils for gassers. They also have API certified and non API certified oils for Diesels. Their semi-synthetic 15W40 is an API licensed product. Amsoil states why they choose not to have some products API certified and others certified. It makes sense to me - they give you both options.



There are a lot of people running Amsoil in their CTD's out there. Has anyone heard of a single case of an engine warranty being denied because of Amsoil? I know I've read of warranties being denied on here because of running Bank's products - and there are more guys here running Amsoil than Banks. I have every copy of the TDR from issue #1 and haven't read of a single case of a warranty being denied in there from running Amsoil either.



Slick 50, Duralube, et al have all been investigated by the FTC and have been fined and made to change their advertising and claims. Amsoil has never had a claim made against them by the FTC - and they've been around a lot longer than those additive companies. You can do a search yourself at http://www.ftc.gov .



The information is out there. If you do not feel like running a non-API certified oil there are lots of oils out there you can buy. If you want to run Amsoil and have it be API certified then you can buy that version of the product. If on the other hand you choose to believe Amsoils claims and run extended drain intervals with oil sampling and potentially put your warranty in jeopardy (which as I said above I have not seen a single case of) then that option is open to you as well. I know in my case I voided the warranty on my engine about 2 weeks after I purchased the truck so that was a non-issue for me.



It's all up to the individual user like all of the products for our trucks. Do your research (there's plenty of arguments on both sides on the website here - you could read for weeks on it if you wished) and make the decision you feel comfortable with.