Amsoil not API certified

[WadePatton]

I think the whole thing is MOOT.



Okay, here's why.



How many ISB CTD's are repaired for oil system failure under 100k? AT ANY MILEAGE?



I don't have the numbers, but I have a sneaky little suspicion that it's a very very small number and then it's probably NOT oil quality related. [Like the one with mud dabbers in the oil filter and the folks letting the foil from the top get into their system--nothing to do with OIL itself].



So I'll put whatever I like in mine AND often. And remember that the use of "non-approved" stuff does not automatically void anything. They have to prove that the non-approved parts caused the

failure. Laws in your state may vary.



Here's what you do IF your truck melts down up on non API oil.



(clipped from Diesel Dynamics)



Point out to the dealer the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act. Require that he explain to you how the after market equipment caused the problem. If he can't - or his explanation sounds questionable - it is your legal right to demand he

comply with the warranty. If your still unfairly denied warranty contact: The Federal Trade Commission, which administers the Magnuson-Moss Act, monitors compliance with warranty law. Direct complaints to the FTC at (202) 326-3128.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Originally posted by WadePatton

I think the whole thing is MOOT.

Probably right. But, customers have a right to know they are taking a chance with non-API approved oil.



My original post said "Amsoil not API certified", thats it.

Am I wrong?

Is it API certified (2000/3000)?

Am I wrong in saying that the manual requires API certified oil?



No amout of posting or theorizing will change the above facts. I never said it was not good oil either.

 

[lschultz]

Throw a little more gas on that fire. I'm just kidding.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Point out to the dealer the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act. Require that he explain to you how the after market equipment caused the problem. If he can't - or his explanation sounds questionable - it is your legal right to demand he

comply with the warranty. If your still unfairly denied warranty contact: The Federal Trade Commission, which administers the Magnuson-Moss Act, monitors compliance with warranty law. Direct complaints to the FTC at (202) 326-3128. "



THAT is, and always WILL BE the biggest evasive and real-world meaningles bunch of USELESS advice we customers will ever be exposed to!



If yer out on the road with a failed engine, transmission or differential, and the dealer you are forced by circumstances to rely upon for service sees a sticker on yer truck or pointedly ASKS you what lubes you are using - THEN denies warranty for non-API compliance, exactly HOW MANY here are next prepared to sit in some distant town for MONTHS, WAITING for a court decision as they use that "mighty" Magnussen-Moss" club to beat that dealer into submission?



PRECIOUS PIDDLIN" FEW! - more like NONE!



ALL the dealer has to do in that case is state "warranty refused due to customer use of non-specified lubricant" He has the owner's manual to back up that statement, at that point, it's up to YOU to prove HIM wrong, and YOU are gonna spend the time and dough in a distant town CHALLENGING that statement?



GET REAL! You'll pay up, and drive off with yer tail between yer legs, poorer and MAYBE, wiser...



Threads like this are to present ALL sides of the story, so consumers can carefully evaluate the FACTS, then make their OWN informed decisions...



FACT:



Amsoil, for clearly stated reasons of their own, PURPOSELY and DELIBERATELY choose to use chemicals in percentages KNOWN to potentially void manufacturer's warranties and prevent API certification, and promises NOTHING as to their own intention to back the product OR customer in court - ALL they do, is say contact them is such cases - HARDLY a public committment to financial support or legal assistance! If that was what they REALLY intended, they would clearly SAY so! Until they DO, better figure yer on yer OWN!



HEY - if that's the stuff YOU want in yer vehicle, GO fer it, and enjoy - it's a free world!



BUT somewhere along the line, surely SOME will ask, "what in terms of PROVABLE advantage will I receive from the use of this non-compliant lubricant? Longer engine life? According to WHO and by what long term testing method? (MY truck ain't no "4-ball" testing machine, ant THAT "test" don't mean diddly-squat as it relates to my engine - for Amsoil, or any OTHER brand oil!)



"I get great oil analysis results" - Shucks, so do *I*, with ordinary Delo 400 - and IT is API certified, reasonably priced and easily available, and recognized as DC compliant in any DC dealership in the country!



"Keeps my engine/transmission cleaner inside" - Great - but *I* don't spend lotsa time poking around inside MY engine - I'm FAR more interested in things like better fuel economy, reduced internal engine component failures - PROVEN, not estimated or inferred by the outfit SELLING the product (think they just MIGHT be sorta biased? NAHHHhhhh... ) - and PROVEN longer overall engine life, than I am in precisely how "transparent" my lubricant stays while accomplishing that chore!



"well, I used that stuff for LOTSA miles in my last truck with excellent results" - GREAT - and so do HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of owners using good brands and grades of common dino oils that are readily available, economical, and DC accepted!



After going thru a NUMBER of threads like THIS one, I still feel Amsoil is probably a very GOOD synthetic - but I ALSO still don't feel the "benefits" are sufficient to justify the price, as compared with other readily available, less expensive and fully API certified alternatives - and when/if *my* chosen lube causes a failure (highly unlikley!), and the dealer refuses warranty repair (also "moot", since my warranty is ALREADY voided due to mods), I'll do just like everyone else faced with that situation - PAY, and drive away... REGARDLESS of the bluster and false "security" of Magnusse-Moss!

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Gary, the way I read Amsoils warranty it's not just a call us, etc ( http://www.amsoil.com/warranty.htm ).

AMSOIL INC. of Superior, Wisconsin, hereby warrants that its lubricants and lubricating fluids are capable of and suitable for meeting the specifications set forth in the AMSOIL Product Selection Guide, product data bulletins and written recommendations. It is the responsibility of the retailer, installer and/or purchaser to determine if these specifications are adequate and proper for the intended application.



AMSOIL, INC. of Superior, Wisconsin, further guarantees its lubricants and lubricating fluids against defective materials, design and workmanship. These products will not cause mechanical damage when used according to the company's recommendations in mechanically sound equipment. This warranty is subject to the following limitations:



1. The warranty herein applies only to lubricants and lubricating fluids, which are manufactured and or packaged by AMSOIL INC. and sold through a registered Dealer, retailer or installer of AMSOIL INC. products.



2. The liability of AMSOIL INC. shall be limited to:





* Replacement of the lubricants or lubricating fluid.



* The cost of labor, materials and mechanical components required to remedy the damage done to the equipment in which the AMSOIL product was used.

There are disclaimers such as that the warranty does not cover racing applications (neither does D/C's warranty), that they won't be for consequential damages (loss of use, etc), yada, yada (pretty much the standard stuff that most warranties have in it). They specifically state the cost of labor, materials, mechanical components, etc. Unlike some performance vendors where their warranty covered a maximum of the cost of the parts purchased from that manufacturer. You are right that it's a situation where you'd have to potentially fight between Dodge or Amsoil I guess but that could happen even in the case of an API approved product. A good example of that is the case of Fram oil filters coming apart and causing engine failures. In that case Fram has been covering the cost of replacing those engines - not D/C because it was Fram's fault.

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by Steve St. Laurent:

You are right that it's a situation where you'd have to potentially fight between Dodge or Amsoil I guess but that could happen even in the case of an API approved product.

I'm having a hard time envisioning this. I can't imagine DC blaming an engine problem on my use of a lubricant that meets all of DC's specs, including API certification.

A good example of that is the case of Fram oil filters coming apart and causing engine failures. In that case Fram has been covering the cost of replacing those engines - not D/C because it was Fram's fault.

How is the Fram filter situation an example of a dispute arising over use of an API certified product? Fram filters are specifically addressed as not being approved for use on the 5. 9L Cummins in a DC TSB. A far different situation than using an API-certified lubricant that does meet DC specs.



Rusty

 

[Texas Diesel]

"Steve, may I humbly suggest ( as the thread starter ) that this thread should be locked. I think everyone has had a chance to debate the issue and from this point on it will not be constructive. "

 

[Riflesmith]

Gary,

This entire thread is moot since most people posting have no warranty due to mods.



Again, I must point out that I have yet to see an Amsoil user post anything in this forum criticizing users of dino oil for their choice in lubricants. It is well documented that regular changes using Delo and similar oils give excellent engine life. It is equally well documented that Amsoil users enjoy long engine life as well. What amazes me is the number of people who attack Amsoil that have no experience with it.



It is simply unfortunate that some people using dino oils do not extend the same courtesy to users of Amsoil that is extended to them. Threads like these send the message to Amsoil users, "hey, what you are doing is not smart, listen to me and I'll show you a better way". This is the reason people get somewhat miffed during the course of these threads.



But then, that is the intention of some of the posters here.



It is indeed unfortunate that we continue to be unable to have a FACTUAL, civil debate on this subject. There are always a few that like to see how hard they can twist someone, then sit back and enjoy the results. Too bad.

 

[WadePatton]

Aw, come on...

Let's get ten pages of slander and libel on the books.



An old expression is "pay your money, take your chances".



I say use oil, keep it fresh and filtered, drive a Cummins, be happy.



And as I implied before, show me a Cummins dead from "non API" oil under 100k-or any mileage, then I'll worry. Now I just let the thunder roll and women worry.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Is it necessary to keep going through this?



No one is attacking Amsoil or those who use it.



The thread is based on API certification or the lack of and the *potential* for warranty issues.



The dino oil I use is API certified, I'm not aware of anyone using non API certified dino oil.



I repeat my plea:



"Steve, may I humbly suggest ( as the thread starter ) that this thread should be locked. I think everyone has had a chance to debate the issue and from this point on it will not be constructive. "

 

[Riflesmith]

If the shoe fits... ... .....

 

[Elite1]

Originally posted by AKoperdak

I run Amsoil HD diesel and marine oil 15W40 in my truck. Recently I could not get my oil shipped fast enough. I had to change my oil I was past 6K miiles on it. So I put in delvac 15w-40. What I noticed is that my water jacket heated up faster and my running water temp was about 5 degrees F higher than with Amsoil. This is all the evidence I need to prove that Amsoil is doing more for me than an API certified oil. When I had my Valve cover off at 25K miles there wasn't anything that would lead me to believe a problem existed.

On another note. When I drove a commercial Tractor trailer we used non API certified synth oil also. Think the industry would risk their equipment? I think not.

AKoperdak, too bad you didn't try the Delvac1... . you probably would have been more happy with the performance.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Personally, I think posters to this thread are behaving quite nicely - *I* sure don't perceive any dino oil users here "attacking" Amsoil - or ANY synthetic or it's users - merely responding to the original question as to API certification, and POSSIBLE warranty issues...



What's so sinister, evil or abusive about THAT?



Again, personally, I have not the slightest doubt that synthetics are a superior lubricant in our diesels - INCLUDING Amsoil - but THAT wasn't the issue of this thread - API certification IS!



I think those selecting synthetics for their truck are making an EXCELLENT choice - INCLUDING Amsoil, as long as they are at least aware of even the vaguest threat to their warranties such choice might present.



As for ME, personally, it took 12 years to put 120,000 miles on my '91 truck - using plain ol' dino oil, it was running perfectly and delivering EXCELLENT oil analysis results when I sold it after buying the '02. To project my personal usage, it would take another 25 YEARS for me to pile up enough miles to reach "normal" Cummins life expectancy for my engine - and I would be 90 years old! SO, in MY scenario, exactly WHAT would paying 2-3 times as much for a synthetic have bought ME? Even IF the synthetics DID extend engine life by 50-100,000 miles, what good would that do ME, if I can't or am not likely to USE that extra lifespan to my advantage in a practical, real life manner?



I suspect the VAST MAJORITY of us will NEVER *wear out* our Cummins during the time we own them - and given THAT, we each individually must ask/convince ourselves that the added cost of using ANY synthetic is actually a cost-effective practice... For ME, it is NOT!



At least in the engine - I *do* intend to use the best available synthetic in my 6-speed and differential - and that may well be Amsoil - I thinks it's GOOD STUFF! And I think that guys like Wayne (Amsoilman) are great guys, and a valuable part of this group!

 

[Texas Diesel]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Personally, I think posters to this thread are behaving quite nicely - *I* sure don't perceive any dino oil users here "attacking" Amsoil - or ANY synthetic or it's users - merely responding to the original question as to API certification, and POSSIBLE warranty issues...



What's so sinister, evil or abusive about THAT?



Again, personally, I have not the slightest doubt that synthetics are a superior lubricant in our diesels - INCLUDING Amsoil - but THAT wasn't the issue of this thread - API certification IS!



I think those selecting synthetics for their truck are making an EXCELLENT choice - INCLUDING Amsoil, as long as they are at least aware of even the vaguest threat to their warranties such choice might present.

THANK YOU! COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER!!!

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Texas Diesel
Probably right. But, customers have a right to know they are taking a chance with non-API approved oil.

My original post said "Amsoil not API certified", thats it.
Am I wrong?
Is it API certified (2000/3000)?
Am I wrong in saying that the manual requires API certified oil?

No amout of posting or theorizing will change the above facts. I never said it was not good oil either.

*I* think you are wrong on one point. No, not all Amsoil lubes are API certified. But I believe you are wrong to say that the manual says API-certified oil *must* be used. The service manual does not state that vehicles must be serviced with API-certified lubes.

Perhaps you overlooked my first response to this thread. In that unlikely event, I quote it below:

My '98 Service Manual states, for diesel engine oil, engine oil quality: "Use only oils conforming to API Quality CE or CE/SG. "

Also, for classification of lubricants: "Only lubricants that are endorsed by the following organization should be used to service a Chrysler Corporation vehicle. "

Thus, '... should be used ... ' means that API certification is not mandatory, and '... oils conforming to ... ' means that any oil that meets or exceeds the specs, including Amsoil, is just fine for use.

Perhaps the Service Manual is worded differently in other years, but for my '98, using Amsoil is quite acceptable.

Of course, this is only my own humble opinion, and you are, of course, free to tell me my opinion stinks worse than a skunk.

Fest3er

 

[Texas Diesel]

Of course, this is only my own humble opinion, and you are, of course, free to tell me my opinion stinks worse than a skunk.



Fest3er

ROTFLMAO



2001 Service manual page 0-4 "In Diesel engines, use an oil that conforms to API Service Grade CF-4 or CG-4S/SH ... " Not much to misinterpret here.



They dropped the word "should" between 98 and 01.



Your opinion doesnt stink like a skunk but your feet are a different story

 

[Pit Bull]

Looks like I can run the old stuff in mine if you could find it. My Rotella T that is rated CH is over kill



2000 Service manual states the following about Diesel engine oil.



" Use only oils conforming to API Quality CE, or CE/SG. A sulfated ash limit is specified for lubrication oil used in Cummins engines. Oils with a high ash content may produce deposits on valves that can progress to guttering and valve burning. A maximum sulfated ash content of 1. 85 mass % is recommended for all oil used in the engine"



By the way what is Crude oil API certification? CE?

 

[RoryTek]

Does fuel savings play in this thread? I would think if you can gain up to 8% in fuel mileage and/or reduced emissions using synthetics would be worth it over dino oil. As far as API cert. goes, just another level of, well I'll leave that one alone.





73's

 

[amsoilman]

Well I admit this thread has been very interesting. The first post said, "Amsoil Not API Certified". That is a blanket statement! First off, I think you should realize there is a difference in "CERTIFIED" and "LICENSED"! As has been pointed out by several people, some Amsoil engine oils are not API Licensed, and some are. So the statement that was first made is simply incorrect.



An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests, and can therefore be licensed, if you pay the price and are willing to conform to certain limitaions. "Certified" simply states the oil meets or exceeds certain performance criteria. And Amsoil does state there oils "meet or exceed" certain specs from different manufacturers.



I would think that after being in the business of producing Synthetic oils for 3 decades now, Amsoil Inc. would have been brought down by the major oil Companies or the engine manufactures if their products were not performaing to the standards they are advertised to do.



Here is just one other "Quote" from the Amsoil website.



How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing?



"First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.



We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V. I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the Inexpensive and less shear stable V. I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World.

AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals.



AMSOIL INC. 's products and formulations outperform API licensed oils. They're engineered that way. Period.



The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and our insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved. "



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Pit Bull]

Interesting that in 2000 the Dodge CTD required "CE" API oil and since then oils have been improved to CF, CG, CH and now we have CI. I would assume this would mean that each one of these improvements would require the Oil company to resubmit their new oil formula for a new API donut. Wow since 2000 the oil that our trucks use has been upgraded 4 times. I can see if your a small company like Amsoil it would get real expensive real fast doing all of that testing. I would think it would make $$$ sense not to comply. Most people take their cars and trucks to the dealer to get them serviced or to quick lube. The only oil my dealer carries is Rotella T no synthetics. The majority that would go to the expense to use a synthetic in their truck would be a do it yourself person. If you care that much to use a synthetic you are into this stuff and can read the data and don't need the API to do your thinking for you. I can also see why Cummins and Dodge cover their butt by requiring API donut so some cowboy out in the oilfield doesn't start pouring crude oil in their engine. I also doubt if you had an engine failure that DC would blame it on the oil unless the engine was soot clogged up from lack of maintenance. They would not do it based on the type of oil since they would not know what type was in the engine?? JMHO after reading all of these posts.