Amsoil or not ?

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I will be on my third oil change and am considering using Amzoil.

What is the general opinion on this ?



I usually run a factory filter... just because I have heard that if there are any problems with the motor and the dealer see's some other kind of filter they will deny the warranty claim.
 
Your question has been the subject of some VERY heated debates in the past on this site.



Conventional lubricants do a good job of protecting the Cummins. This is an established fact backed up by many personal experiences.



If you have your heart set on using synthetic oil in the Cummins, the accepted wisdom on this site seems to be to wait until 12-15,000 miles before going to synthetics. If you are at that mileage point, you should be safe to go ahead.



I started using Amsoil at 12,000 miles and have had very good results, confirmed by oil analysis every 7,500 miles. I use Fleetguard Stratapore 3894 full flow filters and an Amsoil bypass oil filter.



Change interval is up to you. I am currently going 20,000 between changes. Best of luck with whatever you decide. :)
 
Your question has been the subject of some VERY heated debates in the past on this site.



Here's the unstatement of the year!:eek: All you need is a Fram filter w/generic oil and you'll be fine! You can go at least 15000 between changes;) ;) (I'm kidding)



Look this thread uo as a list of all the approved filters. http://216.235.147.117/forums/showthread.php?threadid=27311&highlight=approved+oil+filter+list



Should you use Amsoil... ... ... . Beer check, chips check, salsa check, all right boys let the games begin!:D :D :D



Glenn



So this post is not totally useless. I use Fleetguard Stratapore filters, Delo 400 oil and drain it every 5000. FWIW I just don't like extended drains, no matter what brand people use.
 
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Don't use stealer filters!

Go to your local Cummins shop and buy the Fleetguard filters. Cheaper than the stealer. You can also order these if there is no Cummins shop in your neighborhood. I used to order a half dozen or so at a time. Now, there's a Cummins shop a couple of miles away :p .



Cummins doesn't recommend synthetic until the engine is fully broken in. I'd wait till at least 12k. I've used Amsoil, and it seemed to be a good oil. However, it is expensive and isn't API certified.



I'm now using Delo 400 every 5k miles. I kinda missed crawling under there to dump the oil Oo.



Jason
 
Theres lots of good oil out there. It's your decision use what you want/can afford. I use Amsoil 5W30. We change filter at 5000 and oil/filter at 10000. I know I could go longer but I don't have any oil analysis done. If you do a search on this you'll find more than info.

And you will find some people(Don) that don't like Amsoil. Looks like you stirred that fire ant mound up again. :-{}
 
Just to throw in my $. 02, I finished completely switching my truck over to Amsoil (engine, trans, diff's, transfer case) at about 60,000 miles. Immediately my fuel mileage went up about 1. 5 mpg, consistently. Now with about 122,000 miles on my truck, I'm running a consistent 19mpg, with oversized tires. Not as good as some, but pretty darn good. I change my 15W40 at 10,000 mile intervals - but then most of my driving is commuting on the highways. Good luck to you.
 
Since you are already leaning towards Amsoil, I'd like to share a few opinions on the topic:



1) Wear rate alone is not a reason to switch to synthetic for our application. Delo users get very low wear rates, and the Rotella users aren't far behind, and the engine outlasts the truck with any quality diesel oil. I'm a big fan of synthetic anyway for a host of other reasons (cold weather starting, longer change interval, less worry about turbo bearing coking, etc, etc, etc); I just don't want you to jump on the bandwagon with me and then feel like we tricked you later! ;)



2) Get a bypass filter if you're going to go longer than 5k on your changes. Many use the dual bypass from Amsoil (including me), but I'm going to switch to the oilguard or Amsoil single bypass. While many go 10k, 15k, or longer without bypasses, my theory is that bypass filters have more impact on wear than synthetic oils, so why do one without the other? And why risk increased wear with long intervals and no bypass? I could go on and on and on, but it's already there in old threads so I'll move on...



3) Amsoil 5W-30 vs 15W-40: A number of us who started with the 5W-30 have switched to the 15W-40; many others just started with 15W-40 in the first place. 15W-40 users report less oil in the blow-by bottle and less "misting" from the blow by bottle (you'll see this in the headlights at night when sitting, sometimes). The 15W-40 is the weight recommended by Cummins. Several reported lower wear rates with 15W-40 (although at least one or two reported lower rates with 5W-30, so you may have to do your own testing). Finally, 15W-40 is much more economical, essentially ending any temptation to play with long drain intervals unless you have the bypass (a 10k run, with a filter at 5k, will treat your engine right, and you could afford 5k changes if you're a low mileage driver). With all that said, your signature mentioned snowmobiles, so, your needs might be different than mine and 5W-30 might be the right choice for you.



4) Yes there have been heated debates in the past. One good point I learned was that if you have significant modifications to your engine, fueling levels might dictate short changes no matter what oil you use. We tend to have these discussions without asking for application details that can change what is the "best" answer. Bottom line, if you extend your intervals, do oil analysis and learn what's right for your engine, your application, your number of cold starts / short trips, and to be sure you don't have an antifreeze leak sneak up and kill your oil.



5) Oil filters: The one you want is the LF3894. Buy from your local truck place or order from Geno's on line. Keep your receipts. Print a copy of this TSB:

http://www.dodgeram.org/tech/tsb/2001/09-004-01.htm

With both of those in hand, Dodge will not be able to give you any grief over warranty issues. Footnote: This is another reason I think those under warranty might be better with a single remote or Oilguard bypass filter - Amsoil filters are good, no doubt, but it is a smaller company and their filters do not appear on the "approved" list. With the Oilguard, single remote, or other true "bypass" style filter, you can keep an "approved" filter as your full flow filter, while still enjoying the benefits of bypass filtration.



6) Warranty in general: I would recommend that you don't specifically tell the dealer you are using Amsoil, for two reasons: first, there is a technical/ legal issue because Amsoil has not paid for API certification, and second, because believe it or not, a small percentage of Amsoil users have given the oil a bad name in some circles by doing stupid stuff like switching to Amsoil and then running 20k or 30k with no filter changes, no oil analysis, nothing. Even Amsoil can not magically shield the mighty Cummins from the full power of stupidity!
 
I've used Amsoil since the 3rd oil change on my '93. I change oil every 6000 miles and run an analysis at every change. My last analysis was as good as the first and I've got 147,000 miles on my truck. I use Amsoil in the rear diff but not in my NV4500HD transmission. Good luck

Happy trails

:) Bob
 
Thank for the replys.

There is a local Cummins dealer not to far away from my house , so I will be there Monday for a oil filter.



I think I will try the Amzoil 15w40 and I will go 10k miles with a filter change at 5k.



Now I get to do that joyful oil change this week. Gotta love getting to that filter:rolleyes:
 
HC,



That about sums up it Man. Good post. The only thing I would add is I would stay with the higher viscosity oils of 15/40 over the 5/30 for most appplications. Winter time driving in cold cold climates I might go 5/30 (Alaska, etc)





Don~
 
Just passed the 415K mark and have used Rotella 15/40, changing every 5k. Oil analysis on the last two changes came back great. Finally switched from those darn Fram filters to Fleetguards about 6 months ago. OK so I didn't know any better. :) I just think if it is a quality oil and you change it regularly you will be OK. JM . 02:D
 
Thanks Don. Hey, we're talking about oil again without tearing at each other's throats. I like it. But please, we don't have to do that "group hug" thing now, do we? (I'm kind of old fashioned. ) ;)
 
There is a local Cummins dealer not to far away from my house , so I will be there Monday for a oil filter.


cwarner,

Two more tips:

1) I've been to several local Cummins dealers who tried to sell me filters other than the LF3894, and in all cases they were passing out incorrect information about which is the "best" filter for our engines, or the "correct" filter for synthetic oil. Several TDR members have independently verified this number directly with the Fleetguard help line, and if you want their top-of-the-line filter, get the LF3894, accept no substitutes!



2) While you're there, do yourself a favor and pick up about three FS19579 fuel filters. Cost about $12 to $14 each, or pay about $45 at the dealer for the "Mopar" box with the same filter in it. I always carry 2 or more in the truck, just in case I get a bad load of fuel. And at $12, you can afford to change them at 10k, easy to remember and makes life on that lift pump a little easier.
 
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Here is a SAE paper(952553)Dated October 1995. Thisis just part of the paper, but it does report much longer drains are attained.



A Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil with Extended

Laboratory Test and Field Service Performance





ABSTRACT



This paper describes the engine test and extended oil drain field performance of new synthetic engine oil technology developed for use in North American low-emission heavy-duty Diesel engines. The resulting formulation utilizes an advanced additive system specifically tailored for synthetic base stocks which exceeds current industry and engine builder targets in critical performance tests. Use of synthetic base stocks allows the formulation of engine oils with a unique combination of performance characteristics, which include meeting SAE 5W-40 viscosity requirements for cold starting benefits while maintaining low volatility loss at high temperature for oil consumption control. In addition to meeting API CG-4, CF-4F, CF-2, CF, SH and EC requirements, this technology has also demonstrated exceptional performance in extended-length Diesel and gasoline engine tests. Furthermore, it has also performed very well in extended service interval field tests.

At drain intervals up to four times those normally recommended, excellent engine wear, deposit protection, and oil consumption control have been consistently demonstrated. Additionally, fuel economy benefits in excess of 4% relative to SAE 15W-40 conventional mineral oils have been documented.



The desire to reduce costs associated with the operation of heavy-duty diesel engines has prompted considerable interest in extending the mileage and/or time between engine and vehicle service intervals. Extended service intervals for engine and other vehicle lubricants offer the potential) for multiple cost benefits. Lower cost for consumable materials (lubricants and filters), reduced labor costs for scheduled

maintenance, less out-of service time for engines and/or vehicles, and lower expenses for disposal of used oil and filters are several potential benefits that could be realized by extending service intervals. As operating costs rise, the incentive for fleet operators to extend engine service intervals increases. It is ritical, however, that extension of engine service intervals does not negatively impact engine reliability and durability since increased repair costs and engine down-time would rapidly offset cost benefits gained by extending service intervals.



At the same time that engine operators are recognizing the benefits for extending service intervals, diesel engine manufacturers are producing updated emission controlled engines with significantly higher specific power output than the older engines they replace. Therefore, operating conditions for engine oils are likely to be more severe due to potentially increased thermal and load stresses. Engine builders and operators also expect improved durability from modern diesel engines, further increasing the performance demands on engine oil technology. Combining a move to extended oil drain intervals with the introduction of engines with higher power densities and longer service lifetimes increases the challenges for developing engine oils capable of providing the level of protection needed to prevent lubricant related engine problems.

The objective of the work described in this paper was to develop a high performance diesel engine oil with the capacity to provide the maximum level of engine protection at extended oil drain intervals.



PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY



The performance benefits of well balanced engine oils formulated with synthetic polyalaolefin (PAO) base stocks have been well documented in the literature (1-4); therefore, this was considered as the preferred approach to develop the best possible premium diesel engine oil. A number of Synthetic diesel engine oil formulations, based on specially developed additive technology, were used as the starting point. The additive components were selected to optimize the heavy-duty diesel engine performance of the final product while maintaining a high level of gasoline engine test performance. For example, the ashless dispersant and metallic detergent systems were carefully balanced to minimize formation of diesel piston deposits. Additionally, the viscosity of the base stock system and concentration of viscosity improver polymer were selected to provide a product meeting SAE 5W-40 viscometrics. This viscosity grade was

considered to be optimum for this application since it allows for exceptional low temperature properties while maintaining the high temperature viscosity at a level typical of modern Diesel engine oils. Some of the characteristics of the resulting synthetic heavy-duty diesel engine oil (SYN-DEO) are summarized in the following section.



Many units have operated on SYN-DEO in heavy-duty, long-haul service at extended oil drain intervals, with some units on drain intervals beyond 100,000 miles. Even under these conditions, SYN-DEO has consistently provided measurable benefits in terms of improved engine performance.

Fleet tests with SYN-DEO are being conducted in Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel and Mack engines.



CONCLUSIONS



An SAE 5W-40 synthetic heavy duty diesel engine oil exceeding CG-4, CF-4, CF-2, CF, SH, and EC performance specifications has been developed. Results from this study indicate that formulating an optimized high performance additive system utilizing synthetic base stocks provides a product with a combination of unique physical properties, and laboratory and field engine performance attributes. The high level of performance documented for SYN-DEO in standard and extended-length engine tests was further demonstrated in field testing using greatly extended oil drain intervals. The successful performance of SYN-DEO in severe fleet service confirms the potential for premium synthetic diesel engine oils in extended service applications. Application of this technology offers numerous significant benefits to engine

users.



The extraordinary rheological characteristics of SYN-DEO make it well suited for applications where low temperature engine operation or high temperature oil stability are of concern. The outstanding pumping and cranking performance of this product offers excellent low temperature starting performance. At the same time, the synthetic base stocks provide a product with kinematic and high-temperature high-shear viscosities at levels typical of premium SAE 15W-40 mineral oils. Additionally, the high temperature volatility of SYN-DEO is well below that of most multigrade diesel engine oils.



2. When used at standard oil drain intervals, SYN-DEO will provide a substantial performance reserve in the areas of soot dispersancy, viscosity stability, sludge and deposit control, engine wear, and oxidation stability, with reduced Oil consumption and improved fuel economy, all of which should contribute to extended engine life.



Wayne
 
HC,

you were right , I went to the Cummins dealer today and gave them the number you gave me and then he asks if I'm running a synthetic oil . I told him I will be as of this change. I tell him how many miles (14,800) and he suggested not doing the synthetic until at least the next change. So I decided to run the Valvoline (blue?) stuff for the Cummins .

Well he tells me that the number you gave me is for a synthetics and gave me another filter that is for petro oil. I will post the number tommorow I left it at home.

Does this make any sense ?



Man ,

I feel like a brainless person with this diesel, there is soooo much to learn. Now if it was a big block chevy I would know what the hell I'm talking about

:)
 
Ah, there isn't REALLY "so much to learn" in this diesel stuff - it's just that as a class of owners, we Cummins folks sorta get hung-up on some of the more trivial minor details... ;) :p :D



Use a good name brand filter, same for the oil, change it reasonably regularly, and you'll likely NEVER wear that Cummins out! Use the stuff that others will tell you is "the best", and the Cummins will STILL probably outlive you - so no need to get TOO carried away or red-faced with minor details!:D :D





NOW, for the REAL question:



Has anyone in this group ever had a warranty challenge from using ANY brand of bypass oil filter? I want to install my Frantz on my new truck, but am distrustful of dealer service departments where add-ons are involved... :confused: :confused:
 
A special filter for synthetic oil? Now there's a brainless person. You have to watch out for those counter guys. You should have asked him how the filter would tell the difference.
 
Well he tells me that the number you gave me is for a synthetics and gave me another filter that is for petro oil. I will post the number tommorow I left it at home.

Does this make any sense ?



I think I know how these things happen - the counter guy is giving you something based on "marketing information" he has received somewhere in the past, and assuming that it was "technical information".



From a marketing viewpoint, you would push your "premium" oil filter hardest with those using synthetic oils, because they are more likely to be willing to pay for the premium filter, and more likely to go longer on the change interval. From a "technical" viewpoint, I think the best oil filter is the best oil filter, period. Don't go by what the counter guy says. Call the experts who work for the company that makes the filters! Call Fleetguard at 1-800-22FILTER and ask them which is their best filter for this application. They'll tell you LF3894, and they won't ask you which kind of oil you're using before they tell you.



Petro or Synthetic oil, both are very good, I don't think you're "wrong" which ever you chose. But I do think the fact that you are even asking these questions tells me that in the Fleetguard line-up, the filter you want is the LF3894. And yes, some of us do sweat the details too much; I'm one of the worst!
 
Gary-KJ6Q,

Many years back, acually in the early 80's, Chrysler tried to say that an Amsoil by-pass oil filtering system caused a Plymouth engine problem. It was taken to court and proven that a by-pass system when correctly connected, will not and can not cause any flow or pressure problems which would cause an engine failure.



A by-pass is just that! It by-passes some of the oil from the normal flow of oil, and has restrictions that will only allow around 10 percent fo the oil to go through the by-pass element. Even pluging the inlet or the outlet of a bypass oil element will not effect the normal flow of oil.



Incidentaly, The first Dodge/Cummins I installed a by-pass on was a 1991 model, and one day it was in the shop for some warranty work when a Chrysler Corp. rep saw it installed on the truck. He said, "That is the best thing you can do for your engine"!

I left it at that!

Wayne

amsoilman
 
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