Anatomy of a Frantz toilet paper bypass oil filter

[Gary - K7GLD]

Well Mike, to *me*, iron levels near 90 ppm, with other wear metals near the same relative levels - accompanied by the lab's suggestion that "all is well", just doesn't ring my chimes!



NOR do I subscribe to the theory that if ya divide the accumulated miles into the contaminent levels, it's all OK and perfectly acceptable... Think about it - if iron ppm at 90 in yer crankcase at *5000 miles* is BAD, why is it any MORE acceptable at 43,000 miles?



Put another way, if someone wanted to sell us what they called NEW oil that had the above analysis numbers, would we really buy it just because a test lab reported it was "satisfactory for continued use" - or would we be looking for some other brand with better test numbers? I certainly know what *I* would do!



We've been thru this drill before, and I fully recognize that extended drain proponents are totally satisfied with similar reports, but I wouldn't be. In my own extended drain "test", if I see contaminent levels rise above levels usually seen at NORMAL drain intervals on stock non-bypassed setups, that oil WILL be drained and fresh stuff installed.



I may be expecting way too much, and get my teeth kicked in as far as my hopes and expectations with the Delo 400 and my Frantz filter are concerned - but NO WAY will oil with iron ppm above 20, and relative similar numbers for the rest, be left in my crankcase! My first 5000 mile oil sample goes out in the morning's mail...



Then we'll see what that and the NEXT 5000 miles reveals!

 

[Midnite]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Well Mike, to *me*, iron levels near 90 ppm, with other wear metals near the same relative levels - accompanied by the lab's suggestion that "all is well", just doesn't ring my chimes!



NOR do I subscribe to the theory that if ya divide the accumulated miles into the contaminent levels, it's all OK and perfectly acceptable... Think about it - if iron ppm at 90 in yer crankcase at *5000 miles* is BAD, why is it any MORE acceptable at 43,000 miles?

Well, keep in mind that 90ppm iron in 5000 mile oil indicates that the iron parts in the engine in question are wearing *much* faster than 90ppm in 43,000 mile oil. 90 ppm of iron by itself in the oil is pretty meaningless--it causes *no* extra wear whatsoever by its presence alone.



Obviously, when given the choice of brand new oil vs. oil with a good amount of miles on it, I'm right there with you--I'll take the new oil every time! But that's not really relevant to whether 90ppm iron is harmful simply by it's presence alone.

My first 5000 mile oil sample goes out in the morning's mail...



Then we'll see what that and the NEXT 5000 miles reveals!

I'm sure it'll be very good! Post the numbers when you get them.



One of these days I'll get off my rear and get a bypass filter...



Mike

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Mike, I have 2 issues facing me with my own "test" - my engine only had 22,000 miles on it at the beginning of the current oil sample - most agree the Cummins is not fully broken in and seated until closer to 50,000 miles - so my wear metal levels MIGHT be a bit higher than what I would see further down the road - but time will tell. My first, non-bypass oil sample that started with 2000 miles on the engine, and sample taken at 6000 miles - 4000 miles on the oil - resulted in an iron reading of 19ppm, the rest of the wear metals at similar levels. The next analysis, AFTER the Frantz install, and with 4000 miles on the oil, 10,000 miles on the engine, came in with 14ppm iron, and similar reductions in other wear metals. It'll be interesting to see what an additional 10,000+ miles on the engine will deliver!



Second potential issue, is that due to a small oil leak at my vacuum pump, I've had to add dye to the oil for DC techs to trace down the leakage point - and I dunno where and how that will possibly show itself in the oil sample for the NEXT 5000 mile analysis...



In any event, the primary focus and basic reason for investing in bypass filtering is to REDUCE contaminent levels - therefore, to me, it seems sorta foolish to then turn around and let the oil get as dirty and contaminated (or moreso!) as it did BEFORE installing the filter, regardless of rationalizations for doing so - to each his own!

 

[Forrest Nearing]

is the group purchase still on? who do I contact?



thanks,



Forrest

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Forrest, contact Deborah Walker at:



www.wefilterit.com



Tell her you are interested in gitting the special TDR group price for a filter - she has stated she will continue to give discount pricing to TDR members. Feel free to mention my name and reference if you wish.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

many thanks Gary!



Forrest

 

[amsoilman]

Second potential issue, is that due to a small oil leak at my vacuum pump, I've had to add dye to the oil for DC techs to trace down the leakage point - and I dunno where and how that will possibly show itself in the oil sample for the NEXT 5000 mile analysis...

Gary,

Dye in engine oil will not effect an oil analysis, as it is just dye!

Some oil Companies even put dye in their oils before they are put in the container. Remember "Royal Triton". It was purple right out of the can.



Color of engine oil by it's self, is not a the best indicator of the condition or the quality of the oil.



In the earlier days of Diesel engines, the oils would turn Coal Black within several minutes of running.



With the EPA getting in the picture, the engine manufacturers had to make their engines more environmentally friendly, and the oil Companies had to come up with better engine oils to address these and other issues.



We started to see this around 1994 when the API CF was introduced. Then things got a bit tougher, and the API CF-4 was introduced. Then in 1995 came the CG-4, and again in 1998 the API CH-4 came about due to exhaust emissions. Then only 4 years later came the current API CI-4 oils (September 2002) that addressed EGR issues. Each time these API requirements were introduced, it was because of the Engine manufacturers having to "clean up" their engines.



Today's oils used in modern Diesel Engines will now go for several thousand miles before they turn "Coal Black", compared to the oils of only ten years ago!



Now we are going to see another API requirement change very soon, and it is expected to drive the costs for Diesel engine oils up very high.



New diesel oil category PC-1O is expected to be released by next year, but preliminary estimates predict it may cost somewhere between $10. 8 and $24 million to conduct the testing matrix. According to Jim McGeehan, chairman of ASTM's Heavy Duty Engine Oil Classification Panel, the multi cylinder tests that have been proposed for PC-10 will cost between $90,000 and $120,000 per test run.



Five new engine tests are in development, and a sixth for catalyst after treatment compatibility is under consideration.



The five new engine tests include:



1) The Caterpillar C-12 test, addressing iron piston deposits and oil consumption.



2) The Mack T-12 test, addressing corrosive ring and liner wear and bearing corrosion



3) The Cummins ISB test, addressing soot-related valve train wear in slider follower designs.

4) The Cummins ISM EGR test, addressing abrasive and corrosive soot-related valve train wear in engines equipped with exhaust gas recirculation.

5) The Mack T-ll test, addressing soot related viscosity increase.



By comparison, new gasoline engine oil category GF-4 includes just one new test, the Sequence IIIG for measuring high- temperature deposits, wear and oxidation. The cost of matrix testing is estimated at $420,000, a small fraction of the estimated cost for PC-1O.



Sorry to ramble on, but don't worry about the dye in your oil.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks for the info Wayne.



Sure sorta makes me wanna buy a 50 gallon barrel of the current Delo 40 15/40 tho... . Sometimes "new" isn't really "better"!

 

[mhenon]

Franzt filter up-date

Well, I installed the Frantz at 51k miles. The oil was changed at 50k so it was just started to get a honey color to it when the TP filter went on. It took about 500 miles or so and the oil cleared right up..... looked like new. I was pretty impressed.

Now at 53,500 I see the oil is getting that honey color again... not black by any means... but showing a little color. From this first filter it looks to me that the TP will last about 3500 miles or so. Does this sound about right to you guy's that have used it for awhile?

I think that 3 changes (TP filter) every 10k looks like it will work out. Thats what Cummins wanted in the first place (for HD use) so it works for me. The TP is cheap and the filter housing was installed up by the battery so changes will be a snap.

Anybody have an idea how long the main full-flow filter will last now that the Frantz is installed. I don't see that it's doing much filtering now... . so what do you think... . every 6 months or a year... or what?

I want to thank Gary for introducing the membership to this filter. The thing works. There is no way my oil would look this clean after 3500 miles.



Mike

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

A repost of mine from a related thread...



=====



Mike, I'm thinking along the same lines you are - if we change TP cartridges in the Frantz every 2-3K, plenty of makeup oil for additive package purposes, and the excellent filtering ability of the Frantz certainly keeps the oils clarity perfect. I am thinking the need to even change the stock full-flow filter could be greatly extended - at least out to 10-15K, especially if one like the excellent Fleetguard 3894 is used.



I'll know lots more, and be better able to come to an informed decision as my extended oil drain "test" progresses - just changed my oil at 5000 miles, heavy towing use the last 1000 of those miles with the COMP at 3x3 - more fuel, load + grades, more soot and darker oil - now with about 200 miles on the new filters, oil is nearly clear as new again... Oil sent in for analysis, should have results back soon...



====



Driving habits and conditions vary among owners - I use my truck for towing a high percentage of the time, and heavier fueling produces more soot and wear particles - so I personally prefer to change my TP cartridges at about 2500 miles or so - YMMV...



JEEZE, I *love* these filters!

 

[Chipstien]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

JEEZE, I *love* these filters!

Hmmm, who woulda guessed.

 

[moparguy]

Well, I installed my Frantz over the weekend and my 2k old oil was getting a little dark, now in only 50 miles of driving, I swear, it's not as dark.



Anyone else care to report on your experiance?



Gary, I was about to start a new thread, but decided to keep all the info on yours.



BTW, you've now beat my old "Big Honking Air Filter Installed" from 2001 thread in the number of replys, but I got ya beat on views, 30,457 to 13979 and counting.



RJR

 

[John - K5AWO]

Those post/view figures are just like what the policians use. Pick the one you want and emphasize that.



30,457 views shows an tremendous amount of interest for sure.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

No doubt about it that BHAF is a GOOD thread on a good subject - will likely go to one myself!



That's what I like about this board - probably more expertise per hundred posters than ANY similar board on the net!

 

[MKinner]

Found a place you can get your TP "elements" by the case. .



http://www.toiletpaperworld.com/tpw...ts & Dispensers&strSubSection=Bathroom Tissue



price seems to be good... didn't see anything about john wayne paper though... . :-laf

 

[MLee]

Found a place you can get your TP "elements" by the case. .



http://www.toiletpaperworld.com/tpw...ts & Dispensers&strSubSection=Bathroom Tissue



price seems to be good... didn't see anything about john wayne paper though... . :-laf

Probebly have to use the recycled SCOTTS or Industial roll to get the ferm roll that you need. No _____ intended.

Marv.

 

[MLee]

Gary;

Because inquiring minds want to know- Where did you get your 100 wire screen to make your over kill screen was it a specialty distributor?

Marv.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The 100 mesh brass screen was an item from my local ACE hardware store - you need to VERY carefully make a pattern for size/shape - I then cut 2 pieces out from the brass mesh, stacked them, and carefully ran a solder bead all around the inner and outer edges to prevent the brass from unraveling and shedding pieces into the oil stream... The finished piece should as nearly as possible lie within the inner (center post) and outer lip of the base to allow the TP cartridge to still sit flush at the bottom...



Actually, I think the similarly cut and added coffee strainer filters do a more effective part catching stray TP dust particles as they sit on top of the added brass filter - the brass filter is intended primarily to provide a smoother and more even support than the cruder SS mesh already inside the Frantz base. I usually add about 3-4 layers of the coffee filters - they are very cheap and easy to cut to shape...



But then, I'm sort of a fanatic...

 

[RedRam401]

Gary,
I ordered my filter from EBay today after reading this thread and will install it on my 04. 5 as soon as I get it.

On my Cat C15 550/1850 I've extended oil drains to 20K sometimes 25K (without bypass filter) using RotellaT 15/40 and analysis shows that all is fine at that interval.

I will probably install the Amsoil bypass system on it after reading this thread, but am open to suggestions.

My main question now is which oil to use in my CTD?

Is the RotelaT 15/40 a good choice?

Chuck

 

[MLee]

Restricter Size And Outlet

Ok-- I've re-read this 12 pages again and have seen no mention of the out- let hole size. The one I have, is at present, 1/8 inlet, and will restrict it to 1/16, But the question is, do they all have the OUTLET size of 1/16, as mine now does. It happens to be one of the old variety of at least 40 yrs of age, but cleaned up nice and looks good.



Marv.