Anatomy of a Frantz toilet paper bypass oil filter

[John - K5AWO]

Gary,



you are right as to the pressure on the seals. I was just commenting on the filtration performance which comes down to flow rate.



That said, I would always make sure the restriction is on the input side so the output oil can freely weep thru the filter element and down to the oil pan.



I think we are on the same page.

 

[Ralph Wood]

It is a tough choice. The Motor Guard is the least prone to leak of the TP filters so it doesn't matter where you put the orifice. Back forty years or so ago they had to stop putting the orifice at the inlet because there was so much large stuff in the oil it would plug up. Someone might not notice the filter wasn't heating up. They started putting the orifice at the outlet. A guy ordered the orifice not installed for his Motor Guard so that he could put it in the filter mount. I don't use the orifice with the sandwich adapter from Perma-Cool. On the 5. 9 12 valve at work I had a machine shop convert a Perma-Cool universal 189 sandwich adapter to fit the Cummins thread. I didn't use the orifice in the M-30. The full flow filter heated up first then the M-30 started heating up. I drilled the adapter with a 7/32 drill to help the relief valve. The oil pressure came up nicely. The filters work better with the sandwich adapter so I like to use them whenever I can. There is full pressure on both sides of the element but there is slightly more going into the element. I installed a Motor Guard and Perma-Cool ATF filter on a new Dodge Cummins Saturday. All of the fluid goes thru the (Ford FL-1 A) but a small stream is going thru the Motor Guard first. I didn't put an orifice in the Motor Guard. I have some adapters being made up for the trucks but they will take a smaller full flow filter because of a clearance problem. I made a clamp to return the clean oil thru the turbo oil return tube on his Cummins. It was easy. I bolted the filter to the top of the cross member. This guy doesn't allow holes to be drilled in the frame so I have to use existing holes. He is a retired fighter/U-2 pilot which explains it. It would be like drilling a hole in a wing.

Back in the 60s Motor Guard manifolded up to four TP filters in parallel. If you installed a 1/16" orifice at the inlet you had a powerful filter. You had four filters filtering at the same rate as one. You could also go four times as far between changes.

At work we have a big Gardner Denver air compressor that has a large spin on filter in a large pipe. I bolted a M-30 to the top of the filter mount. I use the pressure drop thru the filter of 3 psi to feed the M-30. There is a pipe plug at the inlet and outlet to measure the resistance so that you can tell when the full flow filter needs changing. The oil and water is very agressive so I have to use the Motor Guard elements. They are like coffee filter paper in a roll.



Ralph

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

HMMMMMM - just had a brainstorm!



Make up an adapter bolt for the NV-5600 manual transmission that is hollow and allows lube oil to be circulated thru an external filter to keep it clean, and then returned thru another like it - maybe even incorporate a small cooler into the adaptation... HMMmmmm... .

 

[Dkevdog]

Interesting ideas and discussion- Just an FYI, Frants will be one of the many vendors at our Southern California Summer Diesel Show- Festival in the Foothills.



Form more information, you can go to our website



Kev

 

[Royk]

I'm about ready to change my TP. Couple questions:



1. What are the two inner core sizes of TP and what brands fit the Frantz as equipped (as in no O-rings)?



2. I believe someone stated that the O-rings should be 1 3/8" diameter. What is the cross-sectional dimension of the O-ring, or are they one-size-fits-all?





Roy



P. S. I currently have 1,810 miles on the oil (Mobil 1 Truck and SUV 5W-30 synthetic) and I can clearly read the marks on the dipstick. It is starting to darken slightly from its out-of-the bottle appearance, so I want to change the TP soon.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Roy, I can't answer your first question on inner diameter core sizes of various TP brands, because I always use the Scott brand shown - the cross-section of the O-rings I use with that Scott TP is pretty crucial if proper contact is to be obtained. The cross-section of what I use is pretty small, and if too large is used, the O-ring will simply be scooted to the base of the center post as the new TP cartridge is slid into place - that is one reason I will eventually devise a more permanent and solid fix for that issue, now that I have determined it does provide a visibly functional seal at the center section when using the TP brand I do...

 

[Johnstra]

RoyK - The T. P. from Deborah at Frantz is a perfect fit - no o-rings required. It costs more than Scott, but if you don't want to shim the post it's the way to go. Also, as others have noted, it's about 1/4" shorter than Scott rolls so it fits a little easier.



An alternative to o-rings, if you want to go with off-the-shelf T. P. is to get a short section of copper pipe and flare one end just a bit so it fits over the Frantz post. I got one from Ralph Wood and I'm using it on my other truck with Scott T. P. - works great. I don't have the exact dimensions of the pipe he used.



I just did a change this morning. Had 2022 miles on the T. P. and it was nice and dark - obviously doing some fine filtering My oil still looks downright clean.



-john

 

[Royk]

Well, I went to replace TP yesterday. What a disaster. I picked up three sizes of 1 3/8 O-rings on my way home; 3/32, 1/8, and 3/16. I couldn't get that Scott Tissue roll over even the thinnest O-ring without it sliding down. Ended up just putting all three o-rings in core of TP and slapping the thing back together until I can do it right. I could have changed my oil and filter in less time than it took me to get that TP replaced.



Roy

 

[bpenrod]

I also bought the TP from Frantz and it goes together real easy. I also picked up a second canister that I pre-load with a fresh roll. That makes changes fairly easy since I just pull one off and pop the other on.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Roy, once you get the "right" size O-ring, which is a pretty small cross-section, use a twisting motion as you slide the new TP cartridge down the post to keep from just pushing the O-ring down to the bottom. The TP core must be as round as possible - if it's crushed or out of the proper O shape, it's pretty much impossible to get over the O-ring.



I finally took time to actually measure the O-ring size of what I use with *SCOTT TP* - 1. 58 in outside diameter, 1. 38 ID, and cross-section of . 09. This provides a very snug fit between the Frantz center post and the Scott TP when using the twisting motion during install - other brands of TP may well vary and give different results.



All this O-ring bit might be overblown anyway - the stock arrangement could very well be entirely adequate - I only did/do it as an experiment and for any slight added efficiency - probably not worth getting paranoid over...

 

[Ralph Wood]

Motor Guard and Frantz were designed for the old 1 1/2" core TP. Instead of changing the filters to fit the new 1 5/8" TP they came out with their own elements. The Motor Guard element is better than TP but they have a leak proof core that is plastic and will melt at about 135 degrees F. I am sure the factory has a technical description for it but it is like coffee filter paper in a roll. I have to machine my own parts from nylatron so I make them to fit 1 5/8" TP. The old Motor Guards that people find on EBay, etc have to be sleeved. From now on I am machining the seals to fit both TP and the Motor Guard M-723 element. If someone is running over 235 F they can remove the core. The Motor Guard element is perfect for fuel but it is so strong that it has to be compressed by the (T) handle. The Motor Guard has the advantage where the seal is critical such as for fuel. For motor oil if there is a little leakage around the core it's a big deal. For compressed air, medical, fuel it is a big deal. Under normal conditions nothing short of activated carbon can out filter TP. The oil will protect the paper from water. A large amount of water will open the layers of paper like a book left out in the rain.

The copper is 1 1/2" ID x 1 5/8" OD.



Ralph

 

[amsoilman]

#ad


As I had promised Gary, here is a view of an oil analysis from a customer of mine. The oil used was Amsoil 15W-40 Heavy Duty Diesel, and the filtration was a Amsoil By-pass BE-100 element.



At the time of this analysis, the oil had 43,311 miles, the truck had 53,258 miles. The filter element was not changed until this analysis was taken.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Wayne I appreciate the above post, but I can't read it, too blurry, dunno if it's just my PC or what - maybe you could could just post the numbers if you get time?



Hope you had a good trip - welcome back!

 

[amsoilman]

Gary - KJ6Q,

Sorry for the clarity of the report. I will give you the numbers... ... . Wear metals first.



Iron- 87 ppm

Chromium- 6 ppm

Lead- 11 ppm

Copper- 21 ppm

Tin- 0 ppm

Alluminum- 9 ppm

Nickel- 0 ppm

Silicon- 8 ppm



Physical Properties



Fuel Dillution <1. 0

Visc. @100c 14. 96 cSt

Water(%) 0

Soot/Solids 0. 7

Glycol NEG

TBN-9. 13

Oxidation- 7. 0

Soot-0. 73



Recommendations

"RESULTS OF TEST PERFORMED INDICATE NO CORRECTIVE ACTION REQUIRED. "



Once again, the oil had 43,311 Miles, and the filter had not been changed prior to the test. I did change the filter at this time, and I did cut the filter open, just so see the inside.



Hope this makes it more understanding.



Best regards,



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks Wayne - 2 followup questions, do you mean NONE of the filters had been changed during the 43,311 miles, or only that they had not been changed immediately prior to the sample being pulled?



AND, was any makeup oil added during that time?



Thanks again...

 

[amsoilman]

Gary,

I did not take the sample... ... ... . it was sent to me from LAB as the servicing agent, so i do not know if there had been any oil added during that time frame. Usually, if there is oil added it will be stated on the paper.

After I received the report, I called my customer, and he brought the truck to me, and I changed "both" filters, the "FULL flow" as well as the By-pass. I am sure the filters were not changed prior to the report, as I do the service on his trucks, and I also write the milage on the filters. The writeing was still on them when I changed them out, so I am positive they were not changed beforehand.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

JEEZE - that's a LONG time to keep running a filter, no matter HOW confident you are about their performance!

 

[amsoilman]

Very true, Gary, but if an oil analysis shows the oil is still functioning well, and there are no contaminants... . Why not?

That's one of the big reasons for oil analysis... ... ... ... ... ... ... to extend the drain intervals.



On my old truck, I ran 105,000 on oil with only one change of filters (both) during that time, and I think you seen what my valve train looked like.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Sure Wayne, I understand the bit about oil analysis and all, but even the BEST of filters would seemingly lose efficiency - but I guess if some want to place ALL their faith purely in oil analysis (yeah. I know, that's the REASON for oil analysis... ), it's "whatever rocks yer boat".



In any event, regardless of oil analysis results in my currently running extended-drain oil test with my Frantz and Delo 400, I think *I* will continue to swap out both full-flow and bypass elements regularly - might be the only measurable difference is CLEAR oil vs black stuff - but that's what rocks MY boat!

 

[Midnite]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Sure Wayne, I understand the bit about oil analysis and all, but even the BEST of filters would seemingly lose efficiency - but I guess if some want to place ALL their faith purely in oil analysis (yeah. I know, that's the REASON for oil analysis... ), it's "whatever rocks yer boat".



In any event, regardless of oil analysis results in my currently running extended-drain oil test with my Frantz and Delo 400, I think *I* will continue to swap out both full-flow and bypass elements regularly - might be the only measurable difference is CLEAR oil vs black stuff - but that's what rocks MY boat!

Heheh...



Gary, isn't that a bit like saying "I don't need no stinkin' EGT gauge! If the engine SEEMS like it's running okay, then that's good enough for me!"





Just giving you a hard time...



Mike