Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Anatomy of an APPS

[rweis]

1 bracket comming right up (sounds like a fast food place :-laf).



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Okay, Bob, sounds like a plan to me. I'll get online tonight and get everything I need. I think that the DC APPS is the best route, money-wise, and it will give us a good baseline to measure reliability and longevity.



Here's my address:



Frederic Lynes

6969 Harriett Rd.

San Angelo, TX. 76905



I'm getting excited about this!

Among other things, it helps to get others involved in the actual construction and setup of these substitute alternatives - if what we have offered here is not within the interest or abilities of a significant number of guys, not much use promoting it too aggressively.



I'll possibly have Prout's and one other unit going out this week, using the OEM APPS potentiometer combined with the MS - we'll see how those work out for the guys...

 

[FLynes]

Okie dokie, gentlemen, Microswitch and Deutsch connectors ordered (gold pin type)... . total cost $41. 50. Shipping from Mouser via UPS was $6. 66 (creepy).



Hopefully I get all the stuff by next week (21-25 Apr).

 

[rweis]

Gary,



I wanted a guy in the field to do everything except maybe the bracket. I want to make sure we have the wiring right by not doing it ourselves and they do it. It also demonstrates that the average guy with a soldering iron can do this. I know FLynes has above average mechanical abilities, but it still demonstrates the total knowledge to do the DC APPS pot and MS IVS is out there. I think this will be the majority of the users ie DC APPS pot, MS IVS. Their DC APPS is already set, just leave it where it is.



The bracket seems to be still a challenge. Maybe blow by blow how it is bent and why with measurements.



Anyway, I'll do the bracket this time and try to either have cheap brackets (cost of shipping and manufacture < $10), or something.



The more times we can describe this and a different person do it the more ingrained the procedure becomes and the more refined the procedure becomes and the more accepted the procedure becomes.



Everyone thinks a little differently and draws a different mental picture when we describe something.



I think we just need to keep working it one at a time.



Bob Weis

 

[FLynes]

... I know FLynes has above average mechanical abilities...

Whoa whoa whoa, just because I used to wrench on whirly birds doesn't mean I have above average mechanical skills... . any monkey can read and follow directions, LOL!!! In the immortal words of Joe Walsh, "I'm just an ordinary average guy"



Seriously, though, thanks for the compliment.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

(Maybe nudge someone else into a project... )



I've given some thought as to how easy it would be, using an in-line pot as I have done, to construct a totally different APPS assembly inside a length of PVC-type pipe, along with a MS, and mount it all down out of sight to the inner fender well sheetmetal. That would really clean up the engine in the area now cluttered by the relatively massive APPS assembly.



Something like this, posted earlier:



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My idea would be to totally eliminate the bellcrank lashup, and operate the potentiometer and MS directly off the throttle cable and whatever connecting mechanism used. The whole assembly could be enclosed inside a short piece of 1 1/4 or so PVC pipe - of course, this would probably only be do-able for manual transmission trucks later than '01. 5 that only use a single attachment to the bellcrank.



ANYWAY, food for thought - I already have too much on my plate to tackle another project... :-laf

 

[rweis]

I see NO apparent reason for the large triangle support bracket to the APPS.



The ECT guys and the speed control guys need the apps bracket for those actuators. BUT the large aluminum (ie heat collector) triangular brace the APPS bracket uses is a total waste. The only thing I see it is for is a oven baking pocket for the APPS to ensure APPS failure and generate service revenue.



What about a nice simple steel angle bracket using the same holes? The APPS pot is sealed anyway, why the tucking it into an oven to eventually kill it? other than guaranteed service revenue?



I can see the plastic cover to keep stuff out of the bell crank, but the rest of it is very questionable. Why 6@ 10mm bolts to hold a bell crank? like it is going somewhere.



There is no torque to speak of from the pedal cable or the speed control cable or the transmission throttle valve cable. What did they have in mind? 6@ 10mm bolts? The whole drivers DOOR hinge assembly hardley has 6 bolts in it.



I agree we can come up with a MUCH simpler and more air flow mounting system. I played around with an idea to make a steel bracket for the Apps attach and form an air flow deflector to force fan air down onto the VP44 for cooling. Sort of like a little ram air scoop directing air down to the VP44.



Just use the APPS bracket rearward bolts to hold the APPS on. 3 or 4 should be pleanty for the APPS bracket. Take the aluminum triangle brace off entirely. It is not like you are trying to align the throttle cable



Just get some of the crap out of the way.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK Phil (Prout), THIS ONE'S FOR YOU! :-laf:-laf



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As can be seen, I have enclosed the noise/spike filter assembly in split-loom to avoid possible shorting out, and also, after solidly soldering all connections in the OEM APPS module, re-assembled it all into the same original single piece - using only the internal pot section. and bringing in the outboard added MS IVS to allow using the original OEM plug for connection.



I gotta tell you, the fine detailed soldering and re-assembly of the APPS module short leads was time consuming and hard on these old eyes - but makes a far neater job! :-laf

 

[Ragain]

For those with standard trannies... . I now have over 8,000 miles on my "APPS delete"! Freightliner dealers stock the electronic throttle pedal control #AO1-26661-000 (Williams #WM-526). I then ran a jumper harness through the cowl where the OEM throttle cable was routed through the square hole.

ALSO..... The Deutsch 6 pin female Wedge-Lok connector can be found at your local Cummins dealer.

This conversion took me about an hour to complete and has a OEM appearance (which is very important to me).

From the very first start-up after the conversion I have had trouble free driving.

Wichita to Duluth and back. Wichita to Seattle and back. Wichita to Amarillo to Houston and back... ... No hiccups, no MIL's, no nothing! It was a real joy to toss that SILLY bel-crank assy into the dumpster!!!!!

 

[FLynes]

Okay, check this out. I ordered my stuff Sunday evening. Monday I get confirmation messages from both Batts Racing and Mouser Electronics that they received my order. I then received a message from Mouser saying that they had shipped my order that day. I received it yesterday from Mr. Brown.



How is THAT for efficiency!!!! I didn't even go with expedited delivery!



Hopefully the Deutsch connectors show up sometime this week, then I can tear into this biznitch this weekend.

 

[jmolnar]

TIMBO, INSTALLED YOUR SENSOR ASSY. TOOK ABOUT 15 MINS. NICE SETUP. THANKS AGAIN. JOHN. Oo.

 

[rweis]

Flynes, bracket done tonight, in the mail tommorrow.



As I do more brackets they are getting more refined and more refined.



Because the placement of the micro switch is very important (and I do not have a spare exact replacement yet, and your idle set point might be different than mine) I am going to have you drill the holes for the micro switch. I used a 6/32 screw 3/4" long to mount mine. HOWEVER, the holes in the micro switch body are a tiny bit too small for the 6/32 screw to pass. I drilled mine out to pass the 6/32 screw. The amount of material taken out of the existing hole is less than 1/32 total. Barely shavings came out.



I used a sharpened nail (close to 6/32) to mark the spot to drill the micro switch platform for the micro switch holes. I marked the hole toward the wire end of the micro switch first and drilled it for 6/32. I placed the wire end of the micro switch so the other end (head end) of the micro switch will clear the idle set screw casting if the micro switch head end needs to be rotated for contact adjustment. I loaded the 6/32 into the micro switch hole and into the platform hole and used that screw as a pivot to get the micro switch hole at the other end exactely right so it contacts the bell crank just right. IF YOU NEED TO ADJUST THE IDLE SET SCREW do that before drilling the top hole so you get the right location. I also drilled the top hole in the mounting plate only (not the micro switch) with a 8/32 drill. I did that to give me some adjustment room to fine tune the micro switch position.



When I set the micro switch on the mounting plate the roller was not exactely in the center of the bell crank side vertically. I added 1 #6 washer under the micro switch at both screws to raise the micro switch just a hair so the roller is exactely centered. Gary had a good point to put some light grease on the roller and bell crank edge. You might look at the bell crank edge and if it is rough touch it up with a file just a bit so it is nice and smooth for the roller contact.



I used 6/32 screws and 6/32 nyloc nuts so vibration would not affect anything and the nuts can not back off which would screw things up a good bit. I snugged them down pretty well so the micro switch does not move ever.



I found the contact made and contact open voltage difference value was . 145 volts, ie between closed and open - the bell crank travel needed to change the switch state.



I did not paint the bracket as I just finished it tonight and wanted to get it on its way. I used Rust-oleum on mine.



You will see that I welded the mounting platform on the underneath side only on the long side. I did that because the weld joint might interfear with the screw and nut on the short side. The screw and nut on the long side (wire end) will be well away fron the weld joint.



Have fun, call me if something does not seem right.



Bob Weis

cell 863-206-3464

 

[Huntmastr1]

APPS Success Thanks to TIMBO

My truck was surging/hesitating at cruising RPM. You could even feel it when upshifting through the gears. I have been living with this for a long time and actually found that I could cycle the accelerator pedal 30 plus times and it would be better for a while.

After reading the progression of an aftermarket solution here on the TDR, I contacted "Timbo" and purchased one of his Williams APPS units which included the wiring harness. I received the package in 4 days.

The install per the provided instructions was absolutely seamless and took 45 minutes total. Problem solved!!!! Truck drives perfectly. Oo.

At 30% of the cost of the factory replacement,,,, I am thrilled.



Timbo,,, thanks for the work you put into this!



Jeff

 

[FLynes]

Flynes, bracket done tonight, in the mail tommorrow.



As I do more brackets they are getting more refined and more refined.



Because the placement of the micro switch is very important (and I do not have a spare exact replacement yet, and your idle set point might be different than mine) I am going to have you drill the holes for the micro switch. I used a 6/32 screw 3/4" long to mount mine. HOWEVER, the holes in the micro switch body are a tiny bit too small for the 6/32 screw to pass. I drilled mine out to pass the 6/32 screw. The amount of material taken out of the existing hole is less than 1/32 total. Barely shavings came out.



I used a sharpened nail (close to 6/32) to mark the spot to drill the micro switch platform for the micro switch holes. I marked the hole toward the wire end of the micro switch first and drilled it for 6/32. I placed the wire end of the micro switch so the other end (head end) of the micro switch will clear the idle set screw casting if the micro switch head end needs to be rotated for contact adjustment. I loaded the 6/32 into the micro switch hole and into the platform hole and used that screw as a pivot to get the micro switch hole at the other end exactely right so it contacts the bell crank just right. IF YOU NEED TO ADJUST THE IDLE SET SCREW do that before drilling the top hole so you get the right location. I also drilled the top hole in the mounting plate only (not the micro switch) with a 8/32 drill. I did that to give me some adjustment room to fine tune the micro switch position.



When I set the micro switch on the mounting plate the roller was not exactely in the center of the bell crank side vertically. I added 1 #6 washer under the micro switch at both screws to raise the micro switch just a hair so the roller is exactely centered. Gary had a good point to put some light grease on the roller and bell crank edge. You might look at the bell crank edge and if it is rough touch it up with a file just a bit so it is nice and smooth for the roller contact.



I used 6/32 screws and 6/32 nyloc nuts so vibration would not affect anything and the nuts can not back off which would screw things up a good bit. I snugged them down pretty well so the micro switch does not move ever.



I found the contact made and contact open voltage difference value was . 145 volts, ie between closed and open - the bell crank travel needed to change the switch state.



I did not paint the bracket as I just finished it tonight and wanted to get it on its way. I used Rust-oleum on mine.



You will see that I welded the mounting platform on the underneath side only on the long side. I did that because the weld joint might interfear with the screw and nut on the short side. The screw and nut on the long side (wire end) will be well away fron the weld joint.



Have fun, call me if something does not seem right.



Bob Weis

cell 863-206-3464

So this is going to be a measure a million times and drill once, eh?:-laf:-laf



Crap, I hope I get it right. You will probably most likely be getting a call from me, because I don't want to f this up.

 

[rweis]

It really is not that hard. I just dumped everything I could think of about getting it aligned and setup. When you see it you will SEE what I am saying.



I sent the bracket by USPS this afternoon, 3 day delivery.



The first thing I would do is bolt it in and see if there are any mechanical interfearence issues with the bell crank spring retainer.



I did not drill my wires through the APPS bracket. I just let them go vertically down. I run the Williams Control APPS so I carried all the wires (Williams and micro switch (I aded probably 24" of wire to the micro switch wires and followed the same color as the micro switch wires) over to the drivers battery area to mate into the dc harness where I was not trying to work upside down but had pleanty of room to zip tie stuff together and check voltages is something becomes a problem. I zip tied all the connectors and stuff together over there.



Just chose some sort of plan how you want to do this. You'll do fine.



From my truck maintenance log:



03/25/2008 Further Micro Switch Adjustments 90331



I had trouble with the micro switch causing the APPS to throw a 0121 code. The basic problem seemed to be in the original set up the idle voltage was . 440 and really needed to be much closer to . 600. However when you did that then the idle and throttle IVS voltages were off by quite a bit. What needed to be done is to make the micro switch adjustable by itself and independently of the idle set screw.



To solve this I had to be able to rotate the micro switch closer to the bell crank. This meant that some of the idle set screw casting had to be removed to make way for the micro switch frame.

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You will not have to do this because I made the micro switch plate so the micro switch can be easily mounted with pleanty of room.

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Very little material had to be removed, primarily from one of the edges of the idle set screw housing. I also decided to put one of the micro switch mounting screws with the nut topside and the other one with the nut underside of the mounting plate for more even holding power.



After making the physical adjustments the electrical adjustments went like this:



Engine OFF idle set screw . 527 Actual value.

Engine OFF WOT 3. 62 Actual value.



Micro Switch idle trip . 585 Actual value.

Micro Switch throttle trip . 730 Actual value.

(There is a . 145 range on the micro switch from idle trip to throttle trip)



Engine ON idle . 580 Actual value.

Engine ON ECM throttle up . 710 Actual value.



The idle set voltage is supposed to be 10% - 20% of the supply voltage of 5 volts (. 500 volts – 1. 00 volts). . 527 Actual value.



The WOT is supposed to be 70% - 85% of the supply voltage of 5 volts (3. 500 volts – 4. 250 volts). 3. 620 Actual value.



The SPAN (WOT voltage – Idle voltage) should be 3. 00 volts – 3. 25 volts. 3. 093 Actual value.



The IVS should be set between 3% - 10% of the SPAN voltage + idle voltage. . 620 - . 836 (mid range 6. 5% . 728) . 700 Actual value



The ECM starts throttle up at . 710 Actual value.



The setup procedure was:



Screw the idle set screw way forward so the bell crank does not rest on the micro switch. Set the micro switch throttle trip voltage first by moving the micro switch and the rotating the bell crank and reading the value on the volt ohm meter (VOM). Set this value to . 700 volts. This is the throttle IVS value. Tighten the micro switch mounting screws to their final destination.

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This is where you will make the marks for you to drill the micro switch holes. Remember the top end one (the end AWAY from the wire end) is a tad oversized so you have some adjustment room.

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Slowly reduce the idle set screw until the micro switch idle IVS switch is heard. There is . 145 volts of travel between the micro switch idle and throttle switches to activate. Therefore . 700 volts - . 145 volts = . 555 volts approximately for the idle IVS value. Loosen the idle set screw a little bit more to . 530 volts to ensure the idle IVS will actually happen.



There will still be some physical travel that COULD be done in the micro switch plumger travel which tells you you are not stressing the physical micro switch by bottoming it out.



The actual values above may be somewhat different. That is because a very tiny movement of the micro switch in final tightening makes a very large change in the actual numbers.



Bob Weis

 

[rweis]

FYI



There is a guy over on Diesel Truck Resource that has a 95 Mack truck and is replacing the "pedal assembly every year". I asked him if he is specifically using the "Williams WM526 pedal assembly w/APPS ", or another manufacturer. I will post the reply here.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

FYI



There is a guy over on Diesel Truck Resource that has a 95 Mack truck and is replacing the "pedal assembly every year". I asked him if he is specifically using the "Williams WM526 pedal assembly w/APPS ", or another manufacturer. I will post the reply here.



Bob Weis

That WILL be interesting - sure hope the Williams setup is MORE reliable than the DC OEM piece will al "love" so much... :-laf:-laf

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Anyone up for a news flash, regarding the William APPS with the internal IVS circuit? :-laf:-laf



I'm getting ready to wire up my Williams APPS, and in verifying pin letters on the Williams against the pin numbers as used in the DC version, so I can make up an adapter harness - and guess what!



The Williams APPS is using an actual internal SWITCH to transfer from idle to off-idle IVS mode!



No apparent complex solid state circuitry to go bad, just some form of plain 'ol SWITCH! You can verify it with an ohmmeter - and see the circuit resistance switch from about 25 ohms as you rotate the pot shaft slowly off the resting idle position, to infinity - and then back again as you return to rest - change leads to monitor off-idle switching, and there it is again, just like ANY mechanical switch!



You can't do that with the DC APPS, because it requires applied voltage from the ECM to trigger the IVS circuit! The 25 0hms I read at contact is most likely the resistance component they use in their spike/noise filter, as I do in my setups using the outboard MS!



This means (to me!) that there is no reason to seek out a Williams non-IVS version, then ADD an outboard mechanical switch for the IVS function - cuz that, or something similar, is what they are already using themselves!

 

[rweis]

So all the micro switch brackets and micro switches are a non issue?



I do know that I could not get the IVS range I needed with Williams barefoot. I had no trouble once I could set the micro switch seperately.



However, mine has been an odd ball the entire time. Mine would run with . 435 volts and no one else could. So the micro switch may not be a total bust, maybe useful in some situations. I am going to keep my micro switch as is. I'll do the test bed and duration on it.



IF you use your DC APPS potentiometer you will still need the micro switch for the IVS. This combination is the cheapest combination to use the DC APPS potentiometer as you only need the bracket, and the microswitch, and some Detuch connectors (~$35)



Very interesting however,



Bob Weis

 

[FLynes]

Bob,



Got the bracket yesterday... . thanks. I'm going to prep and paint it this weekend, though I doubt I'll have time to install. I'm picking up a new class next week and must prepare. We used to get a week off, in between classes, but we've been pushing more soldiers through, and we just don't have enough instructors lately.