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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Anatomy of an APPS

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Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) 1997 dodge plug in cab

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So all the micro switch brackets and micro switches are a non issue?



I do know that I could not get the IVS range I needed with Williams barefoot. I had no trouble once I could set the micro switch separately.



However, mine has been an odd ball the entire time. Mine would run with . 435 volts and no one else could. So the micro switch may not be a total bust, maybe useful in some situations. I am going to keep my micro switch as is. I'll do the test bed and duration on it.



IF you use your DC APPS potentiometer you will still need the micro switch for the IVS. This combination is the cheapest combination to use the DC APPS potentiometer as you only need the bracket, and the micro switch, and some Detuch connectors (~$35)



Very interesting however,



Bob Weis



YUP, a big, pleasant surprise to me!



Still leaves question as to overall quality and lifespan of the Williams, as compared to the DC module, and whether the same questionable connection exists between internal circuitry and external pins, as with the DC version - time will tell, but at least, assuming relative ease in calibrating the Williams exists, as it has left for the vast most part, absolutely NO apparent reason to use a Williams ONLY for it's potentiometer section, and mess with all the MS and associated bracketry and wiring.



But, also true for guys wanting to resurrect an OEM APPS for it's pot section, and adding the MS, it's still the CHEAPEST way to go. ;)
 
... whether the same questionable connection exists between internal circuitry and external pins, as with the DC version
Gary,



I think you should buy a Williams APPS specifically to take apart and post pictures of it here on the forum. You know you want to. :)



John L.
 
Well, John and Gary and others you all may get your wish I'm really tempted to cut one up for the cause, or send one to Gary and let him disect it, since I have 20 of them in front of me right now.
 
Well, John and Gary and others you all may get your wish I'm really tempted to cut one up for the cause, or send one to Gary and let him disect it, since I have 20 of them in front of me right now.
timbo,



YOU DA MAN! :)



John L.
 
Well, John and Gary and others you all may get your wish I'm really tempted to cut one up for the cause, or send one to Gary and let him disect it, since I have 20 of them in front of me right now.





Actually, looks like they would come apart pretty easily, and then put back together - the "plate" that covers the internals looks like it could be "persuaded" to lift off for inspection, then replaced without damaging anything...
 
Well, John and Gary and others you all may get your wish I'm really tempted to cut one up for the cause, or send one to Gary and let him disect it, since I have 20 of them in front of me right now.



Have you given up your day job yet Tim? Looks like your in the APPS business now. I've set-up and sold a few locally but nothing in the numbers you're doing.

Inetesting that the IVS is a machanical switch. I guessed it to be similar to OEM when I first got my hands on one but never checked it like Gary. If someone wants to dissect one I would suggest checking at the nearest truck (real trucks. . with lots of wheels) repair shop. They might have a few laying around.

Mike
 
OK Phil (Prout), THIS ONE'S FOR YOU! :-laf:-laf

#ad

As can be seen, I have enclosed the noise/spike filter assembly in split-loom to avoid possible shorting out, and also, after solidly soldering all connections in the OEM APPS module, re-assembled it all into the same original single piece - using only the internal pot section. and bringing in the outboard added MS IVS to allow using the original OEM plug for connection.

I gotta tell you, the fine detailed soldering and re-assembly of the APPS module short leads was time consuming and hard on these old eyes - but makes a far neater job! ;) :-laf

Okay! A brief subject redirection & then getting out of the way. .

First - Many Thanks to Gary for the fine job he performed on this unit. Finally got the truck back on the road due to a fuel pump issue and while the truck was down, I installed Gary's modified/repaired "failed" APPS.

Got to try it last night and this morning during stop & go rush hour traffic and simply put, I can not tell the difference between this unit and a brand new one.

I have already purchased several replacement units in the past and one thing I usually notice when they are new is they have a smooth transition off the idle circuit and smooth progression at low throttle settings, withought worn/rough spots. Gary's modified unit has that smooth feel of new. I did not need to adjust anything during the install. Just pulled the grounds off the batts, R&R'd the APPS, added a bit of dielectric grease in the connector and wiped a drop on the ball joint the throttle cable attaches to. Replaced the cover, reconnected the grounds on the batts, turned the key to "on" and gave it about 3 or 4 smooth, full range learning movements of the go pedal. Turned off the key. Turned on the key, she fired as normal, idling perfect, no smoke coming from the apps or ecm :)-laf), no error codes. Again, its basically perfect so far. :):):)

I am really thrilled about these breakthroughs you guys are making. . You all have done a nice job and we salute all of you who have contributed to this project. Thanks Gary - Will report back regularly with status or any anomalies, which so far dont think are going to be a big deal. It's looking like success so far. .

The testing continues...
 
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FYI



There is a guy over on Diesel Truck Resource that has a 95 Mack truck and is replacing the "pedal assembly every year". I asked him if he is specifically using the "Williams WM526 pedal assembly w/APPS ", or another manufacturer. I will post the reply here.



Bob Weis



Bob, With 10 speed or better transmissions and running over 100K miles a year, that's a lot of pedal applications!!! In our little P/U running 10K to 20k miles a year we should get a decent life out of the Williams APPS.

My OEM APPS went 97K miles BTW. I was more upset with the price than anything else. My WM526 pedal and spare sensor combined were $100 bucks cheaper than the OEM APPS.

Mike
 
Has anyone picked up about . 8 mpg with the new APPS system? I have been trying to figure out where +0. 8 mpg is comming from. It might be that the VP44 is sending the "ok to normal advance" earlier because it is warmer OAT. I have not done anything else different. It might be because the IVS is going to "throttle" sooner than the DC APPS was. Nice, but frustrating as to why?



Just courious, it has been this way about 4 weeks this way, oh - hand calculated as well but only 2 tanks so far at the higher mpg.



Bob Weis
 
I am really thrilled about these breakthroughs you guys are making. . You all have done a nice job and we salute all of you who have contributed to this project. Thanks Gary - Will report back regularly with status reports or any anomalies, which so far dont think are going to be big deal.



The testing continues...



Glad it's working out well for you phil - I knew you had serious LP issues keeping you off the road after the APPS install, how did that work out?
 
Hey Gary, That ended up working out well. I recieved an updated FASS pump (the new quiet version) and it appears to be working fine (13. 5 psi - just where we like it), along with that "Previously Failed APPS" you fixed up so well. : ))

(time for a rasp addition up front though)

Like they always say, nothing like a good Updated APPS, RASP, FASS combo to keep us rollin in style...
 
Have you given up your day job yet Tim? Looks like your in the APPS business now. I've set-up and sold a few locally but nothing in the numbers you're doing.

Inetesting that the IVS is a machanical switch. I guessed it to be similar to OEM when I first got my hands on one but never checked it like Gary. If someone wants to dissect one I would suggest checking at the nearest truck (real trucks. . with lots of wheels) repair shop. They might have a few laying around.

Mike



Well Mike, I have not given up the day job. In fact I have been working like a dog at the day job + other projects. I have currently sold 21 but many have not got it installed yet, I'm patiently waiting for some more feedback.
 
No volt check??

"Gary's modified unit has that smooth feel of new. I did not need to adjust anything during the install. Just pulled the grounds off the batts, R&R'd the APPS, added a bit of dielectric grease in the connector and wiped a drop on the ball joint the throttle cable attaches to. Replaced the cover, reconnected the grounds on the batts, turned the key to "on" and gave it about 3 or 4 smooth, full range learning movements of the go pedal. Turned off the key. Turned on the key, she fired as normal, idling perfect, no smoke coming from the apps or ecm :)-laf), no error codes. Again, its basically perfect so far. :):):)"



So you didn't have to check and adjust the voltage as Tim's instructions suggest? That would work out great for me as I have no idea what I am doing when it comes to anything electrical. Mine is sitting on my desk waiting for me to install it, just need to find the time.
 
Well, I have a standard transmission. There may be some adjusting necessary to be done with your auto transmission, but I'll let the people that have done their homework on this subject answer your question/comment more reliably as I believe there may be a cal procedure for those with autos. Still, I believe it is not difficult, or maybe not even necessary.
 
So you didn't have to check and adjust the voltage as Tim's instructions suggest? That would work out great for me as I have no idea what I am doing when it comes to anything electrical. Mine is sitting on my desk waiting for me to install it, just need to find the time. [/QUOTE]



Dave you don't HAVE to adjust voltage when you install the williams sensor. The worse thing that will happen is you will have a liittle bit of petal travel where the engine will not rev immediatly upon touching the petal. You may not even notice it, and if you do, just turn the idle stop screw in til that goes away.
 
Dave you don't HAVE to adjust voltage when you install the williams sensor. The worse thing that will happen is you will have a liittle bit of petal travel where the engine will not rev immediatly upon touching the petal. You may not even notice it, and if you do, just turn the idle stop screw in til that goes away.
I have an auto transmission and didn't adjust my idle stop screw when installing a Williams APPS. At first I did notice slightly more pedal travel from idle before the engine starts to accelerate, but after I used it for a couple of days it seemed perfectly normal. I'm completely comfortable with it that way and I wouldn't change a thing.



Enjoy,



John L.
 
The ONLY reason there's a voltage reference referred to and stamped on the OEM DC APPS, is because it uses transistorized/electronic IVS switching, and requires a specific voltage threshold to activate that electronic circuit. Manufacturing tolerances for various components commonly affect that specific activating voltage, thus the slightly differing stamped voltages from one APPS to another - as well as the need to slightly adjust the mounting position of each APPS so that it's IVS open/close is in spec with mechanical throttle position.



A manual, mechanical switch, such as the Williams uses, does NOT have an "electronic threshold", so is not voltage sensitive or referenced, or even have one marked on it's outer case as the DC one does - and requires ONLY a mechanical adjustment that sets it to open/close reliably down close to the resting idle accelerator position. Of course, that setting must fall within the broad overall range of APPS spec, as set forth by the SAE, and displayed earlier in this thread.



If the setting is too far away from the idle stop position, there will be too much pedal travel before the IVS triggers, and engine acceleration begins, which might be annoying - and if WAY too far, will be outside the "window" the ECM expects, and set a code. If too CLOSE to the idle stop, and the IVS switching between open/close is not reliable, the ECM will again set a code, and the engine most likely will not respond to accelerator movement. The specific mechanical adjustment Tim refers to will normally, easily take care of establishing proper pedal travel on the idle side.



To a great degree, the Williams APPS is NOT voltage sensitive or needing a voltage adjustment - it's pretty much purely mechanical, unless it's WAY out of tolerance, or other APPS bracket stop/WOT adjustments are pretty screwed up.



The Williams APPS setup can probably easily be done OFF the truck, with the APPS module installed in it's mounting bracket - with NO truck connections to it at all - that's the way I have been doing the similar setups I am running and sent to others, so far with perfect success, using only a simple ohmmeter. Typically, I set the at-rest idle resistance of the potentiometer to between 350-400 ohms, using the mechanical stop screws - and then adjust the MS I use for IVS function, to open/close reliably just off resting idle. I have little doubt that same setup procedure will work much the same way with the Williams.



There is only *ONE* characteristic I have noted with the single Williams APPS I have - the potentiometer section wiper seems to travel off the internal resistance track at each end - apparently a poor, or no internal mechanical stop, unlike the DC APPPS modules I have tested - which means the adjustment of the idle/WOT stops on the DC APPS bracket really needs to be checked, otherwise, the ECM will see what appears to be an open circuit at idle or WOT, and likely set an error code.



Timbo might have a comment on that, since he has worked with lots more of the Williams APPS's than I have.
 
Well guys, I just could NOT take the suspense any longer!!!!! NO solid state electronics. Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo. I don't have time right now to explain anything but I'll be back, I'm already late for another project!!
 
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