auto transmission

[Edward]

Consistency test.

Why would three discs have more dragging problems on one end of the transmission than 5 discs have in the other? Wouldn't the problems of clutch disc dragging be more pronounced with more discs? Hasn't the 5-disc clutch pack proven it's self to be a reliable means to hold torque over an extended period of time? What I am getting at is the lack of consistency in the position that three discs in a TC could possibly have a dragging problem that five discs in another clutch pack don't. To condemn the use of a clutch pack on one end of the transmission you must condemn it on the other.



Edward

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Having more clutches in the transmission is a necessary evil - having more than one in the TC has been done to varying degrees of success.



Matt

 

[tractorface]

Blasfamy

Snowman,



I did NOT buy the WRONG truck. I appreciate your response and am more than happy to live with it. I really do love my truck, noise, 53 block, lift pump, VP-44 and all. I rarely tow so I never had any trouble at lower RPM and I thought it might be OK to drive a little different than I am. Now that I know, I'm ok with it.



Need power so I can ruin this OEM unit though.

 

[Snow man]

Edward,no offense to you,and I am not trying to insult you,but you need to go to trans school or read the factory service manual if you dont know the difference between going from 4 to 5 clutches in the front clutch assy,and 1 to 3 in the TC. One is released by spring pressure,the other by hydraulic pressure. We are talking totally different methods of keeping them released. Its clear from your reply that this is over your head,so study the service manual until you know what we are talking about,then you wil be able to answer your own question. Tractorface, it was just a J/K. I know you must love the noise,or you'd have bought a Dmax.

 

[Edward]

Originally posted by Snow man

Edward,no offense to you,and I am not trying to insult you,but you need to go to trans school or read the factory service manual if you dont know the difference between going from 4 to 5 clutches in the front clutch assy,and 1 to 3 in the TC. One is released by spring pressure,the other by hydraulic pressure. We are talking totally different methods of keeping them released. Its clear from your reply that this is over your head,so study the service manual until you know what we are talking about,then you wil be able to answer your own question.

Snow man

I am beginning to wonder if it possible for anyone with (company name omitted) in their profile to post a reply without sounding condescending and arrogant? Please read the post by banshee in this thread. I included a quote from his post.

Originally posted by banshee

Starting with apply pressure or clamping force, this of course comes from fluid pressure behind a piston in our TCs. The truth is, it really doesn't matter at all where they clamping force comes from... it could be spring applied, piston applied, lever applied, or you could push it together with your hands... it really doesn't matter at all. The amount of force that is applied however is directly related to a clutch's torque holding capability, and I think everyone on this board seems to understand that fact quite well.

Snow man I have some questions for you. What is the difference in 40 PSI applied by a spring and 40 PSI applied by hydraulics? Can a clutch disc recognize the difference in 40 PSI applied by a spring and 40 PSI applied by hydraulics? You stated the following.

“One is released by spring pressure,the other by hydraulic pressure We are talking totally different methods of keeping them released. ”.

Are you trying to tell us that the clutch discs are forced apart by pressure allowing them to release? I would like to know the chapter and page number in the service manual where it describes how applying pressure to a clutch disc would cause it to release.



As I understand it a clutch is applied by pressure or force and released by removing the pressure or force. Furthermore a pound of pressure is equal to a pound of pressure without regard to its source.



Edward

 

[Snow man]

Edward, I refuse to give you an education on how the TC works,like I said,get a service manual and read it. You keep thinking there is no difference between the way they apply.

 

[Edward]

Snow man



Sorry for the misunderstanding but I wasn't asking for an education. I was simply asking you to clarify what you said. I am curious, were you trying to blast me with your original post or were you attempting to use this forum for it's intended purpose and have a discussion on transmissions? If I was mistaken by thinking you wanted to have a discussion then I apologize. I also regret that you are reluctant to support your own words. That reluctance leaves me with doubts about their credibility.



Edward

 

[Jetpilot]

Edward,



You have doubts about someones credibilty:-laf



Doug

 

[Snow man]

Edward,I know how the TC works,and why the apply is different. If you would just take the time to educate yourself,you would fully understand as well. I do not wish to discuss this with you only because every discussion with you seems to go on forever,and they end up going in circles. Im stopping this one here. If you wish to discuss this further , PM me, and Ill talk privately,no need to waste anymore bandwidth here going back and forth. John

 

[banshee]

I don't know about you, but most of the time when I'm going down the highway my transmission's clutches are all locked up... including the TCC. The amount of time spent going through the gears with certain clutches inside the transmission unlocked is minimal.



So why would it be advantageous to have even more clutches disengaged inside your TC when you are not in lockup?

Matt,



your own post is answering your own question. If you spend all but "minimal time" with your transmission locked up while you're going down the road then it seems to me that you would want the strongest lockup clutches available. I think we've already established that ATS has that area easily won.



Now what about the other times when the TCC is unlocked when the disks are claimed to be dragging against one another you ask? As you know, the fluid travels from the front of the TC towards the rear of the TC with respect to the TCC piston when the converter is unlocked. The fluid travelling in this direction hits the piston and pushes it towards the rear a given distance. This movement of the piston is what releases the apply pressure on the clutches and thus unlocks the converter. Yes, the methods of release are different, but how does this cause the clutch disks to drag over one another? There is not going to be a large volume of fluid escaping past the piston, so the fluid that does pass this area will flow between the metal and fiber disks and around the outside of the piston. Take a minute and examine this picture:



#ad




As you can clearly see, the fluid has to travel radially outward from the center of converter to the outside of the convter (passing through the disks parallel to the disk surface) to get around the outside of the piston. Basically, this fluid flowing over these disks is no more harmful than putting your fingers under the water coming out of your sink tap. Does your hand get slammed into the bottom of the sink and bruised when you do this? Of course not!! There is absolutely no apply pressure on the disks when the piston & lockup clutch are disengaged, so there is no dragging and no heat created. Disk brakes operate on a similar idea... you don't see them wearing unless your stepping on the brake pedal to generate a tremendous normal force. This "disk dragging" just sounds to me like another lame attempt to take a shot at the Triplelok's durability .



John

 

[SlyBones]

banshee,



This was debated once before. I dont recall the nitty gritty technical explanation as I am not a transmission guru. Best I recall, fluid flowing in the unlock direction that is pushing the piston away to unlocking the converter, does end up giving apply pressure to the clutches next to the piston. Its not every much, but you can measure it with pressure gauges.



I dont by the disc brake analogy as in that case there is truly no apply pressure. Same as the hand in the water of the sink. True you hand does not go slamming down to the bottom of the sink. But thats because our brains, detect the additional pressure ( over and above gravit, etc ) and signal our muscles to hold the hand in place, via a nervious system, all automatically at a bazillion times a second, etc. I dont see those components in your picture.



How about taking a thin film of transmission fluid spread out on a bench. Take one of these clutch disc's and place it on top. Then see by pushing on the side of the clutch with only finger ( virtually no apply pressure ) the clutch plate slips around with no problem. IE no dragging. Then using your other hand see how little pressure you really need to apply to the clutch to get it to clamp to the bench and hold there, making it hard to push around. IE dragging.



And FWIW, I dont really care if the tripleloc is durable or not. Nothing intended towards ATS or any other triple disk vendor. Just my interest with this post, is in purely understanding how the TC works.

 

[Briar Hopper]

The focus on what holds, and what doesn't, should be on the rest of the transmission. A torque converter by itself is not a complete transmission.

Not all companies address the issues of the rest of the transmission.

Consider that a complete DTT transmission has been proven many times over, to hold upwards of 750 HP, using only a single disc torque converter.

 

[Jetpilot]

Wow Edward when did you become a TDR administrator?

 

[Edward]

Jetpilot



I am not an administrator. This is a pay sight and most of us are perfectly willing to pay the fees for what we use. It seems some don't feel the same way. Jetpilot the issue is not who is or is not an administrator. I think you know that.

 

[Chipstien]

I notice that none of the REAL administrators feel that Briar's post is advertising.

 

[Big White Beast]

Here's the rules Ed.....

Vendor Participation: Vendor input and commentary is welcomed in our Discussion Forums, however, direct solicitation is not. Vendors have proven to provide insightful conversation and commentary. Demonstrate professionalism in all post to the TDR Discussion Forums. The following will be strictly enforced:



5. 1. The TDR Discussion Forums are not an appropriate forum for emotionally charged discussion between manufacturers, distributors, dealers, shops and/or users. These forums are intended to be technical resources for members interested in learning more about the proper care and maintenance of their trucks. All Vendors will refrain from making direct, emotionally charged, posts to and/or about competitors. All Vendor posts must be civil and technically oriented. If Vendors wish to compare products with competitors, use generic references (i. e. oiled element air filter; as opposed to Amsoil, AFE, etc. ).



5. 2. No direct solicitation pricing discussions are allowed on the TDR Discussion Forums. The discussion of prices is best left off-line in a private e-mail to those with interest as noted in the appropriate area of the Classified Advertisements. Why? Because many people who visit our Website do not want to pay to read solicitations and sales pitches in our technical Discussion Forums.



5. 3. Vendor participants must have their business name incorporated into their signature block. Vendors may include their business telephone number within their Profile so that it is available to other TDR website users.



Tell me how Briar's post violated it? It is known he is a DTT dealer and made no reference to any other brand. His generic reference to "not all companies" seems to fall well within guidelines. You on the other hand are guilty of "Baiting". The only threads you post to are to bait people who have a certain type of transmission. You add nothing to the discussion except your personal conjecture and when called on it you scream to the moderators to discipline people. In my opinion you have added nothing to any of the transmission threads. Do us all a favor and ask the TDR for a refund and find another web site to Troll on.



Garrett

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by StakeMan
If increased pressure makes a clutch hold better then why add clutches to the clutch packs?

One adds clutches to a pack to increase holding capabilty without increasing pressure.

That is, a single-disk clutch with N lbs. of pressure applied should hold about the same torque as a 10-disk clutch with N/10 lbs. pressure, assuming Mu is the same for both. (These figures are examples only. I havent' employed Banshee's formulae. )

Higher pressures may require changes to hydraulic seals and such, or it simply may not be possible to generate enough pressure to hold a single-disk clutch. Thus the use of multidisk clutch packs.

As to this thread in general, methinks a lot of it could be replaced with a single question: "Did you walk to work or carry your lunch?"

Fest3er

 

[tractorface]

Edward

I pay and I appreciate Briar Hopper's comments.



Big white beast is right on the money!

 

[Jetpilot]

originally posted by Edward



You are a dealer and representing a business. This post promotes a business name with which you are associated and which refuses to advertise on this sight. Your post is a blatant promotion of that business, which makes it advertising. The objective of these forums is to provide the opportunity for members to have discussion not to provide free advertising.

This sure sounds like a somebody trying to be a moderator.

originally posted by Edward



Jetpilot the issue is not who is or is not an administrator. I think you know that.

Just what is the issue then? The original question was "Which is the absolute best, built proof auto trans. for for my 2000 with RV 275 injectors and maybe more?" People have been posting varying opinions on different transmissions which is what the thread is about.



You on the other hand come onto the TDR trying to get threads shutdown, baiting, and now trying to play moderator. If you have any technical expertise to add great! If you have an opinion on the subject at hand great! But if all you are looking to do is cause the same type problems you have on other sights... ... . Well I wish you would go!

 

[banshee]

Best I recall, fluid flowing in the unlock direction that is pushing the piston away to unlocking the converter, does end up giving apply pressure to the clutches next to the piston. Its not every much, but you can measure it with pressure gauges.

I understand this claim, Slybones, but where's the proof? Where are the pressure gauges measuring the pressure? To get a true picture of what is going on you would have to measure the total pressure between each and every disk to see what the net force on that disk is. Somehow I don't see that happening. Who performed a test on this triple disk setup and determined that they drag? How does fluid travelling normally to the disk apply a pressure? As you stated here:

Then see by pushing on the side of the clutch with only finger ( virtually no apply pressure ) the clutch plate slips around with no problem. IE no dragging.

When the fluid flows radially across the disks face (thus applying no normal force) there is no dragging.



Furthermore, a thin layer of fluid on a bench isn't exactly what a true representation of what is ven velocity in the radihappening in the triple disk lockup clutch. The disks are spinning relative to one another and every disk is completely surrounded by fluid under a given pressure. Not only is the fluid moving outward with respect to the disks, but there are hydrodynamic fluid layers that are formed between each disk. It is this phenomenon that main bearings in motors and turbos use to support extreme loads with practically no wear. The shafts in our turbos spin upwards of 100+K rpm and last for thousands and thousands of miles with no wear. The disks in the TCC only spin ~850 rpm max (at idle) with respect to one another and that figure drops to almost nothing when at light throttle while unlocked. When my TC locks at WOT I only see ~250 rpm drop, and that is occuring right at the peak HP RPM. For the most part, there isn't much difference in speed of the disks anyway.



Perhaps the hand & brake analogies were a little far fetched, but I'm trying to explain that without any apply force there is not going to be any dragging & wear.

And FWIW, I dont really care if the tripleloc is durable or not.

That's fine, but the "dragging issue" was brought up by another member, so I'm answering.

Consider that a complete DTT transmission has been proven many times over, to hold upwards of 750 HP, using only a single disc torque converter.

And just how much line pressure is Doug running? I'd be willing to bet that his VB & transmission is not set up the same as the normal customers. If we're comparing numbers then I'll mention that Jeff Garmon ran a Triplelok in his drag truck last year... 11. 6 in the 1/4 if I remember right.



John