auto versus 6 speed

[jponder]

I know one thing, We had an auto and a 6 speed sitting on the shop floor and the next morning the auto looked like some one had beat the hell out of it with a maul. That 6 speed had beat the living crap out of that auto. Thats all I needed to see to let me know I dont need any sissified auto in a real diesel truck!!!!!!

 

[RustyJC]

ah, no actual transmission or torque converter testing though? Okay, that's all I needed to know, thank you.

Are you familiar with aeroderivative gas turbines? The free power turbine is aerodynamically coupled to the gas generator. It shares many of the stall and breakaway characteristics with a torque converter.



Mr. Hasselbach, it is very dangerous for an engineer to think that no one else's ideas have any validity or worth just because they might have a somewhat differing background.



Rusty

 

[hasselbach]

Hasselbach,



The amount of time my clutch is slipping is infinitismally small compared to the amount of time an auto TC is slipping. I don't use "gradual engagement to move a load", I choose the appropriate gear and let the clutch out.

Dave

Dave, for your 6 speed, first gear is 5. 63 to 1, second is 3. 38 to one and third is 2. 04 to 1. The auto is 2. 45 to 1 with a converter that has a 2. 5 to 1 multiple (at least that is what DC says in the service manual). So its more efficient to pull almost 3 gears to match the variable torque sensing characteristics of the TC unit where is final effective 1st gear ratio is infinite between 6. 13 to 1 to 2. 45 to 1, and is adjusting for the load? And are you saying it is more efficient to rock around the torque curve than keep the engine static within a closely prescribed rpm whereas it produces the highest amount of torque?



I have heard of voodoo economics, but is this voodoo physics?

 

[Lorenz]

If that auto had a mystery switch the 6spd couldn't have gotten away with that...

 

[hasselbach]

I know one thing, We had an auto and a 6 speed sitting on the shop floor and the next morning the auto looked like some one had beat the hell out of it with a maul. That 6 speed had beat the living crap out of that auto. Thats all I needed to see to let me know I dont need any sissified auto in a real diesel truck!!!!!!

LMAO :-laf



I'm not sure of this post, is this correct? You had 2 transmissions on the floor, somebody beat on the auto with a 'maul' the next morning. Huh? What is a maul and why did someone beat on the auto? Do you mean somebody went into your shop at night and starting hitting the transmission with a hammer or are we talking about the insides and physical condition of the transmission?



Then the 6 speed beat the living crap out of the auto? Am I missing something here?

 

[hasselbach]

Are you familiar with aeroderivative gas turbines? The free power turbine is aerodynamically coupled to the gas generator. It shares many of the stall and breakaway characteristics with a torque converter.



Mr. Hasselbach, it is very dangerous for an engineer to think that no one else's ideas have any validity or worth just because they might have a somewhat differing background.



Rusty

hmmm, I would think the aeroderivative gas turbine would be better off with a 6-speed at this point... .

 

[gsbrockman]

is aerodynamically coupled to the gas generator.

This entire thread has become so ridiculous that it can kiss my gas generator.

Greg

 

[RustyJC]

This entire thread has become so ridiculous that it can kiss my gas generator.

Greg

Since you quoted my post, I'm sorry if something I said offended you. That certainly was not my intention.



Rusty

 

[Flores]

Im just glad we have a choice. Would be kind of sad if all our trucks were black powerstrokes!!!

BTW I just installed my tst after the reflash for intermittent popping. They changed the fuel curve and now it doesnt hit the turbo nowhere near as hard. 3/3 previously is now aprox 5/5. Greg says the power is still there you just need to set the box a tad higher.

 

[hasselbach]

This entire thread has become so ridiculous that it can kiss my gas generator.

Greg

is that a aeroderivative gas generator that we can kiss?



All kidding aside, I'm out on this post. I think a lot of information has been shared (some good, some not so good), but in all, I think it overall was positive with a lot of good participation by many.



Peace.

 

[rashwor]

This thread reminds me of some of the oil threads of the past. I have a friend who owns a auto transmission repair shop. He has gotten rich off repairing OEM autos out of light trucks and cars.



I will admit that I don't care much for the slugishness of stock autos in most cars and trucks.



I will stick with my manual trannys in my trucks. I use my trucks for towing and I don't want to spend $$$$ to make a OEM auto do what a OEM manual will do out of the box. JMO. :-laf

 

[gsbrockman]

Since you quoted my post, I'm sorry if something I said offended you. That certainly was not my intention.



Rusty

Rusty, no offense was taken ! I only quoted your post in relation to the gas generator statement ! :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf

Greg :-laf

 

[EEdmondson]

I hate to contribute to the continuation of this thread but... I just happened to be reading the 8/04 Consumer Reports this morning and on page 50 it says, "We found in most cars a manual transmission improved acceleration and fuel economy when compared with an automatic (see page 59). "

On pg 59 there are 2 charts: 1st; acceleration 0-60 comparing acceleration of 6 pairs of cars with each pair having 1 of each type of trans. All 6 manuals beat all 6 autos. 2nd; Fuel economy with 5 out 6 manuals beating the autos.



I just thought it was interesting timing because I've been following this thread.

 

[Archive]

Dave, for your 6 speed, first gear is 5. 63 to 1, second is 3. 38 to one and third is 2. 04 to 1. The auto is 2. 45 to 1 with a converter that has a 2. 5 to 1 multiple (at least that is what DC says in the service manual). So its more efficient to pull almost 3 gears to match the variable torque sensing characteristics of the TC unit where is final effective 1st gear ratio is infinite between 6. 13 to 1 to 2. 45 to 1, and is adjusting for the load? And are you saying it is more efficient to rock around the torque curve than keep the engine static within a closely prescribed rpm whereas it produces the highest amount of torque?



I have heard of voodoo economics, but is this voodoo physics?

There's theory and there's real life. Maybe engineers should talk to the users of their products a little more. I have to tow a load up a hill at speeds too low for a torque coverter with a 2. 45 to one first gear. It slips for too long with two heavy a load and will overheat. That's why even the Allison comes with a temperature gauge. Your TC will die on the first attempt while my primitive, slow shifting, wasteful gear box will get the job done over and over again, year after year. A very small amount of slippage in the granny gear gets things rolling and it's easy to match rpm afterwards and shift with almost no further slippage. Otherwise, lock up all the way. The TC will be slipping the entire trip, like pedaling up a hill with a fluid coupling.



Until the 48re can lock up under a wider variety of circumstances, it can't get the job done for a lot of us.



I appreciate that people like you are working on better solutions to this problem, but given the choices today, my choice has to be a 6 speed.

 

[thejeepdude]

Until the 48re can lock up under a wider variety of circumstances, it can't get the job done for a lot of us.

I appreciate that people like you are working on better solutions to this problem, but given the choices today, my choice has to be a 6 speed.

But it can! And there are solutions to this problem! They're just not available in stock form because it's too expesive to build them like that. But if you're willing to pay the price, you can have an auto that will use its slipping to get you going, then lock up in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc... in fact, it'll stay locked while shifting if you have an input shaft that can handle the stress. And a TC that's designed for better fluid coupling might just pull your load up that hill unlocked without overheating! The stock TC isn't worth the metal it's made out of!

 

[Archive]

But it can! And there are solutions to this problem! They're just not available in stock form because it's too expesive to build them like that. But if you're willing to pay the price, you can have an auto that will use its slipping to get you going, then lock up in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc... in fact, it'll stay locked while shifting if you have an input shaft that can handle the stress. And a TC that's designed for better fluid coupling might just pull your load up that hill unlocked without overheating! The stock TC isn't worth the metal it's made out of!

So then the issue of stock auto vs stock manual would seem to be resolved! At least for folks who don't want to modify or can't afford it.



And there are other goodies one might want to spend limited resources on. I happen to have my eye on an Atlas transfer case because it allows you to have rear wheel drive only in low range, which helps a lot with either a manual or an automatic when backing a trailer on pavement. I also like overdrives since the Cummins doesn't need to turn 2,000 rpm to make an empty truck do 70 straight and level. Works good with the 4. 10 off road package.



Any opinion on Gear Vendors (planetary design but doesn't engage below 30 mph) vs US Gear (a more traditional aux transmission)?

 

[RustyJC]

The Gear Vendors can't be used with an exhaust brake when the GV unit is engaged. It's not designed to transmit torque in a reverse direction (i. e. , from the axles to the engine). It is much smoother shifting, I understand.



Basically, the Gear Vendors unit is more suited to automatics while the U. S. Gear unit works better with manuals.



Rusty

 

[CChase]

I had a US Gear in my 87 Ford and loved the thing. I had it both behind the C6 it came with and I also had it behind the T19 manual 4 speed I converted the truck over to. It worked great in both applications (though it makes your passengers worry because it makes a loud clunk when it engages the other gear).



One thing to note though on a manual, if you aren't cautious when you shift it, it will make you pay. You are supposed to lightly flash the clutch to release the torque loading on the driveline, but if you let off the accelerator and unload the driveshaft it will shift. Just imagine going from gear to gear with no clutch and no chance for the engine to change RPMs... . it makes a hell of a thunk and a jerking motion.

 

[jimk]

after market transmission

But it can! And there are solutions to this problem! They're just not available in stock form because it's too expesive to build them like that. But if you're willing to pay the price, you can have an auto that will use its slipping to get you going, then lock up in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc... in fact, it'll stay locked while shifting if you have an input shaft that can handle the stress. And a TC that's designed for better fluid coupling might just pull your load up that hill unlocked without overheating! The stock TC isn't worth the metal it's made out of!

I have read this thread and I would like to know just for the sake of understanding what kind of solution you had in mind. I dont wont to win races pulling trailers or drag race, just have a transmission that I can use that will not get hot and give me good economy loaded or unloaded. I hate the gear splits in the 4 speed automatic and I have no intention of crusing down the road in fluid coupling.

I sure dont intend on spending 4 to 5 k or more to tow in 3 gear lockup, just like I do now. How ever if there is a way to give me gear options that will help me tow in the desired rpm that I wont then I am willing and interisted in knowing how. I dont desire to spool the turbo at stop light and I 98% of the high way so Shifting is no big deal for me. I dont wont to have a closed mind to ideas that have merit. Please tell me what you had in mind? thanks for any ideas Jim

 

[Matt400]

Consumer Reports this morning and on page 50 it says, "We found in most cars a manual transmission improved acceleration and fuel economy when compared with an automatic (see page 59). "

On pg 59 there are 2 charts: 1st; acceleration 0-60 comparing acceleration of 6 pairs of cars with each pair having 1 of each type of trans. All 6 manuals beat all 6 autos. 2nd; Fuel economy with 5 out 6 manuals beating the autos.

But were any of those turbo charged diesel trucks?

I drove an 03 5 speed CTD the other day and it was fun selecting what gear I wanted keeping the R's where ever I wanted but I would still choose the auto cuz I am a spoiled weenie