2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Axle wrap or clutch prob. with trailer

[Tomscreek]

Whenever I tow a trailer, even a small one like a snowmibile trailer, I notice while letting out the clutch, while backing up, the truck wants to jump or buck. Feels weird, and I was wondering if it's axle wrap or maybe my clutch. Anyone else ever experienced this?

 

[Ram4Sam]

I believe it is axle wrap. My truck has done it for years backing a fifth wheel. My stock clutch has always worked well except for this issue, but I found I can drive around the bucking issue for the most part. I'll bet if you could get a friend to back up your truck and duplicate this,you could look under your truck and see the rear end hopping around a bit. Curiously, I have used a flat tow dump trailer on occaision that when backing it up with a big load, the bucking/axle wrap? isn't as bad.



Sam

 

[PC12Driver]

With my sticky clutch, my truck can really get hopping when spotting a trailer. There's no question that our trucks with long leaf springs and lift blocks (stock 4x4) have perfet setups for axle wrap/hop. In hopes of smoothing things out for this towing season, I just ordered a set of traction bars (from Lazarsmith) as an experiment to see if I can get the hopping under control. It's either that or a smoother clutch, and I don't want to de-tune the truck for that...



I'll post back the results once I get them on and run 'em for a while.

 

[JGK]

I hope you have luck with these. However, I have a similarly designed set of bars and mine will still hop. On the other hand, I also have an SB dual disc clutch without the new sprung hub plates, so that is likely a lot of it when trying to move something while slipping the clutch. Modulating the engine speed at higher revs helps.



But it seems the traction bars designed like mine and Lazarsmith (from what I can tell by the pictures on the site) don't work as well as full ladder bars would that attach to both the top and bottom of the axle. I can still get wheel hop with the clutch fully engaged under power depending on the road surface.



Keep us posted on your results.



-Jay

 

[Gene Arnold]

Several years ago I had the same problem. I posted this description on TDR:

When backing, especially backing the trailer, the truck bucks terribly. It is getting more difficult to find the “sweet spot. ” It is starting to buck even when the trailer is not on it. Seems worse when everything is hot.

Three years earlier I had had a new clutch installed when my release bearing failed on a trip back east so I was puzzled at the new problem. Because it got so bad I feared I would do major damage, I took it to a trusted mechanic here in Boise. When he got the clutch and flywheel out he found what he called “hot spots on the flywheel” which he thought could have caused the problem. He will not guarantee a resurfaced flywheel so I sprung for a new one. Was it the culprit? Quite frankly I’ll never know, but I don’t think it was. I think I got a bad install the first time. The Boise mechanic found that the pilot bearing (not an original type ball-bearing but a graphite impregnated bushing) was pushed out about 2/3 of the way to the engine side of the flywheel and was cockeyed as well. There was evidence that the transmission pilot shaft was barely supported, if at all. I think the bucking was caused by the extreme play in the shaft due to the condition of the bushing.



All of this may have no application to you, but you might consider if the pilot shaft bearing has failed.



Gene

 

[NoSeeUm]

In hopes of smoothing things out for this towing season, I just ordered a set of traction bars (from Lazarsmith) as an experiment to see if I can get the hopping under control.

I have been looking (lusting) at these, make sure to report back on the performance. I am running an OFE also.



Thanks;

Jim

 

[PC12Driver]

I have been looking (lusting) at these, make sure to report back on the performance.

Roger that. I'm hoping that they'll show up this week so I can put 'em on this weekend. FWIW, he's running a 10% off sale this month for DTR members...

 

[GCroyle]

Gene, we took one apart that had the pilot almost pushed out of the flywheel and did what you describe as far as not supporting the input shaft. I am leaning in the direction of a careless installation with regard to actually centering the clutch disc (at clutch installation) and carelessly guiding the trans into position, carelessness pushes the pilot out the back side.



I had my truck in some sand and noticed axle hop after the clutch was engaged as it tried to move, then the tire slips in the sand then hook up, repeat, you could actually see the "waves" in the sand from the tire.



I helped a guy in TN a couple of years ago and he diagnosed bad spring bushings with the help of a come along. He put it around the nose of the rear axle, attached it to the receiver hitch, snugged it up a bit to secure the axle and voila! satisfied results, replaced springs. I have never tried this and it was only a diagnostic trick this guy came up with. There might be some other way to wedge or secure the spring to test for wear in the bushings.



I wonder if the automatic trans trucks have spring wrap issues also?

 

[Tomscreek]

When backing, especially backing the trailer, the truck bucks terribly. It is getting more difficult to find the “sweet spot. ” It is starting to buck even when the trailer is not on it. Seems worse when everything is hot

I've also noticed that it seems worse when everything is hot, after I've towed for some miles. In fact I don't think it does it much when cold.

 

[NIsaacs]

Notice the posters having issues, have long beds. This equals a center support bearing, the short beds don't have them. The center bearing "cushion" (if bad) can cause the back up blues.





"NICK"

 

[johncameron]

Notice the posters having issues, have long beds. This equals a center support bearing, the short beds don't have them. The center bearing "cushion" (if bad) can cause the back up blues. "NICK"

I get "axel wrap" with my shortbed. It slowly got worse as I added power:-laf



Now towing heavy I can't use full throttle until 4th:{:{



John

 

[JSTC]

I had the "bucking" when backing my horse trailer. Ground the flywheel & I installed a South Bend clutch & the problem went away. John

 

[PC12Driver]

Well, I finally had a chance to get the Lazarsmith bars on last weekend. And I can safely say that for daily driving, the bad manners of a grabbier clutch are almost eliminated. I can still get a hop going if I'm lazy on the clutch and throttle, but it is nowhere near the magnitude of what it would be without the bars. The majority of the second gear starts are smooth and solid. I still get a little bucking in reverse, but I don't have the bars properly pre-loaded yet (more on that in a bit). But I can now drive around town without bucking from every stoplight. In fact, I can almost get by with driving it like a stocker. It really feels like a whole new truck.



Ride quality hasn't changed much. I think I feel a little more high frequency road vibration, since the rear axle is now securely fastened to the frame. Nothing bad though. Bumps in the road feel sharper. There isn't the secondary shudder anymore after the initial impact of the bump. Probably because the axle is only going up and down instead of flopping back and forth, too. Again, good stuff.



I sort of expected the above results, but a nice bonus is how much smoother shifting is now. Apparently, in normal driving that axle is moving around more than you'd think. The lunge that you'd get when letting off the throttle, clutching, and then getting back on the throttle is gone. The kicker is that I didn't think there was a "lunge" before. You know that feeling you get when you make the perfect shift? That's pretty common now, even if I'm lazy.



Also, without the bars there's a lunge when you let your foot off the throttle or disconnect the cruise. Again, I didn't realize how much until after the bars were on. I've had the feeling that the throttle hadn't fully returned to idle a couple of times now (it in fact has) because I didn't get the, well, lunge that I was accustomed to. Like I said, it feels like a whole new truck.



So far the change has been all positive. No trailers yet, though. I'll add more when I finally get a chance to pull something.



The Lazarsmith bars look super strong (I have the "Drag Bars"). The brackets are solid, and all the welds are nice and clean. They are powder coated, but it's not a great job. The bars were also dinged up a bit, like they rubbed together during shipment (but they were each heavily wrapped in bubble wrap - looks like pre-shipment damage). The rear mount to the nuts under the axle for the leaf spring u-bolts, and the front are bolted to the frame with five bolts each (drilling and tapping the frame is suggested). The front mounts make me nervous being bolted on like that, so I'll probably come up with a catch strap of sorts just in case.



The heim joints used for the bar ends are beefy and don't restrict axle articulation, but without grease zerks, I'm curious as to their longevity up here in snow/salt country. Along those lines, the bars have holes drilled into them to insert a rod (included) to give you some leverage to spin the bars for adjustment. I put these holes on the downhill side by the axle so the (hollow) bars could drain. Unfortunately, this also put the locking tab (like a jamb nut) down into the brackets at the axle, so it's now useless. This is why I haven't put any preload on the bars yet. I'll probably flip the bars around and fill 'em with foam to keep the water/salt out.



The only headache during install was that the length of the drag bars on my truck puts the driver's side front pivot bold right into the fuel tank. So a shorter bolt (or cut one down) needs to be used. The other headache came in shipping. A bracket was lost in shipment (loose in the box, box got a hole) and there was way too much drama that ensued in trying to get a replacement. In the end, he made everything right though.



So, as far as the Lazarsmith-brand bars, they work. Nothing bad, but nothing really outstanding either. As far as traction bars fixing wheel hop caused by a grabby clutch or whatever, they're definitely worth the price of admission!

 

[JPulliam]

I am going to make my own to try and solve the grabby Valair dual disk I have. I am glad to hear about the improved shifting and launching!

 

[NoSeeUm]

Thanks PC;

Jim

 

[Woodenhead]

Any reason all you 4x4 guys aren't using a 2wd low range kit? Being able to back up trailers in low range has saved my driveline since installing the ConFE.

 

[JPulliam]

I use one, but it does not help during normal driving unloaded.

 

[PC12Driver]

Yup. I'll still use the 2-low switch when I'm spotting a trailer, but the bars help out all the time, loaded or unloaded.

I've had them on for a couple of weeks now and I'm still impressed with the ride improvement. So's the wife. She was 9 months pregnant when she went for the first ride with me after I put the bars on and shortly into the drive she noticed that there was "less jiggling. " :-laf

 

[PC12Driver]

Just a follow-up on my above review of the Lazarsmith bars. The truck is going in for an alignment so I relaxed the compression on the bars. I pulled the tape off the adjustment holes (covered to keep moisture out of the un-treated inside of the bars) and a huge section of the "powder coating" came off as well, revealing a nasty patch of rust. Looking down the length of the bar, there are long lines of rust bubbles under the paint. Other side, same thing. Huge bubbles of corrosion all the way down the year-old bar. There aren't any breaks in the paint, so this is all in the prep (or total lack of). I'd really be surprised if these things are actually powdercoated with the amount of corrosion. And if the painted outside looks this bad, I can't imagine what the bare inside looks like. The brackets are showing signs of corrosion under the paint as well.



Like I posted above, the concept of traction bars on our trucks is great. They'll really smooth out axle wrap from a grabby clutch and help tremendously with a trailer in tow. But the quality of the Lazarsmith bars is terrible. Not to put to fine of a point on it, but I've seen unpainted scrap metal left outside with less deep corrosion. I'm all for the promotion of basement enterprises, but these bars are junk.

 

[SKuyper]

I've got an auto and I've had spring wrap / wheel hop when backing my 5'r . . my solution was put the Tcase in low range, if I was just going to back up a few feet... I too have been thinking of some kind of bars... might take some "lunge" out of the back end when accelerating on rough or gravel roads.