Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) bad injectors = rough idle

[Ncostello]

Well, after battling the rough idle (missing) thing for a couple of weeks now since I bought this truck, I took it in to Schieds to ask about buying a new IAT sensor. They weren't sure if that would cause the problem so they said they wanted to look at it on the scan tool.



10 minutes later, they called me back to the shop and told me some bad news. Apparently, #2 and #5 injectors were only running at about 60% and #1 was around 90%. At least thats what the technician told me.



They said that the two worst ones needed look at and most likely replaced, then said it would be wise to replace the third bad (90%) one too, and then said might as well do all six if you're gonna do three.



They said the injectors are $80 each. So now thats $480 more to spend just to get it to run correctly. And they said it probably wont be covered under warranty because Bosch will claim foreign matter ruined them and refuse to cover anything. So my 79000 miles really dont matter.



A couple of questions for the forum. Is $80 a reasonable price each since I have no idea what they cost. Also, does it take long to replace them (ie: will it be down for 2 days). I hate this but I gotta do something.



Now, my truck is completely stock. The only mods I ever planned doing was a BHAF and 4" exhaust. IF these are the only mods I do, can I just simply go with a little bigger injector and no other mods or should I just stick with the stock size injectors. I mean if I going to replace 6, why not do just a little bombing if it really dont cost much more than replacing stock injectors.



And how do prices of aftermarket injectors compare. Is it better just to stick with Bosch parts since I plan on no modifications basically. And trust me, I am not going to change anything else than the air breather and exhaust.



Please help me with your thoughts. I really need some support on this unexpected problem. Maybe I can make it positive somehow.

 

[GiesJ]

Ncostello -

if it were me, i'd throw in some Bosch RV275's (about 270 bucks) and call it good. you want to spend 480 get stage II's (DD or Bullydog. ) The 275's are the main difference (as I understand it at least) between the engine in the Dodge and one in an RV application. Good luck. Your Problem could turn into a 'required' bomb.

J

 

[DEZLPWR]

Consider it a godsend....

Perfect time to upgrade to some bigger injectors!

 

[Ncostello]

Hehe... well, I really didn't want to get into bombing but a little black smoke wouldn't hurt me would it?... hehe... will I get some black smoke??



I'd be interested in buying some RV275's. GiesJ, are you saying that I can buy these, all 6, for only $275. Where from, Cummins dealer or sponsors? Guess I better research. I'd do that, if I could install them myself.



I'm a pretty decent mechanic and have mostly all the tools I need or can get them from work (heavy equipment rental and sales). Now the question is, are there any tricks to installing these... I mean do I just remove the old ones, install the new ones, torque down, bleed the air, and fire up?? OR does it require some computer re-programming and such that would be better left to someone with the computer and diagnostics to do such. OR are there any special "injector installation tools" I need. I really dont have any fears of doing this.



This IS beginning to sound like a positive thing after all.

 

[AggieJustin]

275s

There's a set of 275s for sale in the classifieds right now... .



Classified Ad



JM

 

[kaptn]

I watched a friend do my injector replacement with no special tools in about 2 hrs. Good luck and enjoy the smoke.

 

[JR2]

When I installed my first set of injectors I did not have a clue how to do anything on my engine. I got the directions from someone on this board (a copy of the DD directions) and followed them. Three hours later I had the injectors installed and everything was fine. I had to buy a couple of wrenches (did not have any metric stuff at the time) and that was about it.





If you have any skills at all you can do it...



You ought to look around for some injectors... Bosch 275's should be around $300 new a set of DD1's about $500 or so. You could run either with no other mods to your truck. (a set is all 6 needed for one truck).





John

 

[slo-ryde]

Am I missing something here? The warranty on the motor is supposed to be 7 years or 100,000 miles, isn't it? I'll admit that I haven't read through the warranty information that came with my truck yet. If it were me, I'd would be on the phone to the customer satisfaction hot-line about this. Unless you're looking for an excuse to do some unavoidable bombing.



If you're replacing the fuel filter at the specified intervals (or better yet, having the dealer do it) then how can they say it's your fault? I've kind of decided to have Dodge do my fuel filter changes since 1. it's a bear to get the air out of the system, 2. air in the system can damage the VP44 (straight from a Cummins technician), 3. it isn't that expensive considering the hassle, and 4. it won't give them any excuses when an injector or the VP44 fails.



BTW: were you doing your own fuel filter changes? You mentioned that the truck is still stock so they certainly can't use BOMBING as an excuse. Or is it that the warranty is not transferable?

 

[Ncostello]

slo-ryde,



I was thinking warranty too, in fact that was the first thing I asked. Well, Schied is where my local Dodge dealership sends any diesels for warranty repair. They write the warranty work order, and Schied does the work for them. Well, Schied said that when it was all said and done, after DC, Cummins, and Bosch get brought into this, it will not be covered because they will claim foreign material entered the injector and caused the problem. Schied said they basically have never seen injectors covered by Cummins without denial. I bought it used, so I dont really know how it was taken care of as far as filter maint. is concerned. I really cant argue something I dont know.



I dont mind this mod. If it gives me a little more power, I'll pay for that. I'll have over 100K soon anyway. Then nothing will matter anymore. I'll be on my own for sure then. If this truck still isn't fixed after this, I'm done with it. I'll get something else. I haven't spent this much on parts and time diagnosing things in 12 years. But, I feel confident this will do it.



PS..... will I get smoke now.

 

[slo-ryde]

If you're okay paying for the injectors then I certainly don't have any reason to say anything. Like I said earlier, Dodge will be doing my filter changes until the warranty expires. I figure one filter every 15,000 miles is only 6 changes before running out of warranty. The local dealership will do it for $49, that works out to $300 for filter changes. Not bad when you consider the hassle involved with getting the truck running after replacing the filter. Taking away any excuses: Priceless

 

[Pinion Twister]

Ncostello if you need help installing injectors then i would be glad to help you if you want to run by, i'm not that far from clinton (Brazil) I installed mine it very easy but it would speed things up since i have done it before. As far as which injector to buy i would say by the way it sounds from your future mods that the 275's would be your best bet. As far as where to get them i would look around on this site and some of the links. Don't get me wrong about schied's they have done warranty work on my truck and i bought my first EZ there, Great people and they do good work but spent alot more $$$$ then if i would have knew about this site before hand. Give me a call for directions be glad to help even let you drive my truck maybe you change your mind on future bombing plans.

Keith (812) 448-8843

 

[Ncostello]

Hey, thanks Keith...



I'll give you a call soon. I'd like to see your truck. It wouldn't happen to be bright blue would it?



I plan on ordering some or seeing the classifieds or something tomorrow. Thanks to everyone for helping me through this ordeal.



I just hope this cures my rough idle. And I hope whatever caused the injectors to fail didn't harm the VP44. I'll just have to wait and see. Better start saving nickles and dimes for that one.



PS: Does anyone know if VP 44 failures put debris into the injectors and destroy them, causing me to have to buy new injectors again if the 44 goes?

 

[HVAC]

275's

Be aware that installing 275 injectors will NOT give you 275 horsepower. Not at the wheels and especially not at the flywheel. You would need the Cummins program for the ECM to achieve the rated horsepower at the flywheel. The 275 injectors are about the least you can do for performance, next to an air cleaner change or a larger exhaust system.

 

[Ncostello]

Thats what I asked earlier, if there would need to be any required programming or anything. But running them without the Cummins install on the ECM will still work I understand. At least it seems many are doing this. I dont mind not getting full 275 HP, I just wanted a smooth running engine however possible. It drives me nuts when I know it should idle smooth yet does not. What kind of power gain will I realistically see then, 25HP, 10HP or ?? Stock, mine seems to have all the power I will need, so any gain is just icing on the actual cake.



PS, will this give cause black smoke or not. Just curious. I dont mind either way.

 

[mikel]

I've personally seen the 275's in two different trucks (one auto and one stick) and neither made any 'appreciable' smoke. You'd get a puff if you hammer it without boost, and a light haze that you could see in the headlghts of cars behind you at night, but nothing impressive.



Just my observation.

Mike

 

[Diesel Freak]

275's wont smoke much at all by themselves. Add in an EZ, and it will smoke off boost (but then you will have close to 300 RWHP)



My ETH with just 275's ran at 233 RWHP

 

[JR2]

This should answer the HP question:



#ad






This is a graph of a 99 Cummins Ram with Std Transmission.



The pink graph shows the truck with stock injectors as received.

The light blue graph shows the typical 30hp gain with the 275hp RV injectors.



I copied this off the web site of Diesel Dynamics (www.dieseldynamics.com)





Slo-ryde - It may only cost you $300 total for your filter changes at your dealer, but when the lot boy backs it into a post or when they reflash your truck with out asking you will pay in other ways. I am not saying this will happen, but I for one can buy a filter for $15 bucks and change it in about 15 minutes... Not worth the hassel in taking it to the dealer and waiting a day for them to do it. Anyway. . to each their own.





JR2

 

[slo-ryde]

Originally posted by JR2

Slo-ryde - It may only cost you $300 total for your filter changes at your dealer, but when the lot boy backs it into a post or when they reflash your truck with out asking you will pay in other ways. I am not saying this will happen, but I for one can buy a filter for $15 bucks and change it in about 15 minutes... Not worth the hassel in taking it to the dealer and waiting a day for them to do it. Anyway. . to each their own. JR2

If they back it into a post they pay for it. From what I've seen so far I'd say it's extremely unlikely that they will flash the ECM or anything else for that matter ON THEIR OWN. I've been to the dealer 3 times now and they've done absolutely zip, nada, big zero. They either can't reproduce the problem or it's normal.



I'm well aware of what a fuel filter cost, I also feel I could do just as good a job changing one as any of the mechanics at Dodge. The point I was making is that if anything goes wrong with the VP44 (a $3,000 item!) or the injectors ($480 not including installation per earlier posts) then Dodge is going to blame everyone but themselves for the problem. Can I afford to replace these items if they go bad? Sure, but why would I want to? I'm just as disgusted with Dodge service as anybody else but it doesn't make financial sense to cut off one's nose to spite one's face!



It's not a hassle for me to take the truck in for service. I have free lube and oil changes for 3 years or 36,000 miles so I'll just have them toss a fuel filter at it when I'm there for the lube and oil service.



To each his own.