Bad News Turbo

[DLeno]

The codes still bug me. soler did you happen to notice when or if the engine light came on? disconnecting the batteries won't necessarily clear an overboost code, depending on what conditions caused it.

 

[hasselbach]

Should have disconnected the batteries for a while and unaltered the boost elbow before the dealer ever got their hands on it, LESSON LEARNED!

what is this boost elbow? I have the attitude beta unit and edge gave me no elbow. does the elbow install in the wastegate line and restrict the reference to the wastegate?

 

[SOLER]

The codes still bug me. soler did you happen to notice when or if the engine light came on? disconnecting the batteries won't necessarily clear an overboost code, depending on what conditions caused it.

The light never came on. I never had any problems, or anything that I thought might be wrong. Not until the turbo failed.

 

[DLeno]

wow. that makes you wonder how the overboost got there. Is it possible to find out what boost was recorded, or is that information lost?



on edit: this just occured to me. The presence of an overboost code without the engine light on suggests a historical episode not connected to this failure. the EZ box limits boost and in order for the ECM to see an unhappy boost pressure, the box itself would have to fail or you had a connection glitch at some point. I'm guesing here of course, but this sounds like that code was present prior to the turbo failure.

 

[SOLER]

It's all hard to say at this point. All the info I've gotten has been over the phone. I don't know what the code was, if there even was one. They may have just seen the clamp on the boost hose and assumed that there was an overboost. The guy actually said that it looks like I took the hose off and plugged it off to get more boost. Well, we all know that it wasn't plugged. Anyway, It's going to be hard to argue with them in good conscience. I just got off the phone (overseas long distance, by the way) and the service manager hasn't gotten word yet from the District Manager. I guess I will find out tomorrow. If they keep jerking me around, I'll at least fight that. They need to decide pronto.



I am not as concerned now about the turbo as I am about the engine. I have heard from a friend that had a similar problem with his turbo--the compressor side failed and left deposits in the intercooler. How worried should I be. I won't just tear down the motor and rebuild just to do it. I'll get the turbo on and see if everyting is running good. If I still see smoke or other signs of internal woes, then I'll do the rebuild. But how worried should I be at this point. I'm moving in a few months and will NEED my truck to pull some trailers. Waddaya think guys?



Thanks



SOLER

 

[SOLER]

posted by loganHill02

Should have disconnected the batteries for a while and unaltered the boost elbow before the dealer ever got their hands on it, LESSON LEARNED!

__________________

02 2500 4X4 QC SB: Sold 7/7/04

04. 5 2500 325/600 Bought 7/7/04

Straight Piped/Silencer Ring Ditched so far... . Need new Edge EZ



I'll sell ya mine!



SOLER

 

[RustyJC]

I have heard from a friend that had a similar problem with his turbo--the compressor side failed and left deposits in the intercooler. How worried should I be?

Soler,



Pretty worried! As a minimum, I'd pull the intercooler and piping and have it professionally cleaned. If you see no aluminum whatsoever in the intercooler-to-engine-intake piping or intake elbow, you may have lucked out. Otherwise, you should be pulling the head and seeing what's in the combustion chambers.



Rusty

 

[DLeno]

Yea ditto on Rusty's comments. the intercooler can trap a lot of stuff and save your engine in the short term. Some how or another, if I were you I'd have to check that out before I'd be comfortable firing it up again.

 

[JWerkheiser]

what is this boost elbow? I have the attitude beta unit and edge gave me no elbow. does the elbow install in the wastegate line and restrict the reference to the wastegate?

If you remember correctly, the 04. 5 has a computer controlled wastegate. Makes it easy for the box makers to override without using a mechanical device.

 

[DLeno]

does anyone know on what basis the ECM controls the wastegate? is it just boost, or are there other factors? I've been told that the wastegate control is pretty dumb and the ECM itself is happy even if you disconnect the wire. I don't think any of the boxes override this, although I guess this might be possible via the CAN bus which the Juice box connects to.



But We still don't know for sure if soler's truck is a 555 or a 600. Odds are, since he purchased in very early 04, doesn't list it as an 04. 5, installed the boost elbow, and never went above 32 psi, I'd say this is a 305. But I could be wrong. Soler do you have a 600 or a 555?

 

[SOLER]

555, build date is Nov '03

 

[GWoody]

does anyone know on what basis the ECM controls the wastegate? is it just boost, or are there other factors? I've been told that the wastegate control is pretty dumb and the ECM itself is happy even if you disconnect the wire. I don't think any of the boxes override this, although I guess this might be possible via the CAN bus which the Juice box connects to.



But We still don't know for sure if soler's truck is a 555 or a 600. Odds are, since he purchased in very early 04, doesn't list it as an 04. 5, installed the boost elbow, and never went above 32 psi, I'd say this is a 305. But I could be wrong. Soler do you have a 600 or a 555?

Do you know for sure that disconnecting the signal wire to the turbo will not set a code or CEL?

 

[DLeno]

Soler: thanks, it all makes sense now. boost elbow and 32 psi is too much for the 555 turbo.



Gwoody: I haven't personally verified it, no, as I don't have a 600.

 

[hasselbach]

My 600 gets to 32-33 psi stock, and have seen as high as 37-38 during the Edge Attitude beta testing. . I hope this turbo is different than the 555 models. .

 

[DLeno]

Its different. bigger compressor

 

[Guest]

I dont know I have a 04. 5

 

[DLeno]

clarification: 03-04 trucks have the 555/305 engine, and have a turbocharger who's air flow choke point is in the mid to upper 20s (psi boost), for which the boost elbow is not (or hardly) beneficial, and that suffers reliabillity issues when used beyond the stock wastegate boost pressure.



04. 5 trucks are the 600/325 engine, and have an ECM controlled wastegate, a bigger compressor (less rpm for the same boost), and can generate higher boost pressures more reliably. I don't know where the choke point is on these huffers and I can't speak to the reliabilty versus boost pressure question.

 

[RankRam]

Doug I would like to thank you for all your effort and research of these little black boxes.



I just removed my boost elbow to give that tiny turbo a break from the high boost numbers.

 

[DLeno]

excellent. you know, what would be interesting is to see how much of a difference you actually feel. From my experimentation, I find that the EZ probably fuels up to its maximum at the lower boost pressures anyway (I measured 26,500 psi rail pressure at 25 lbs boost). So the question becomes "do you actually make any more power or lower EGTs any with the elbow?" the data I have suggests that the benefit is either marginal or zero.



At 25 lbs boost pressure (stock wastegate) I find close to 400 degrees temperature differential pre versus post. At 27 lbs boost (acheived with a predator stage 3) the differential temperature was 500 degrees during acceleration. To me, this clearly illustrates the air flow choke point of the charger. Normally, the charger runs well under 300 degrees differential temperature.



Ordinarily, higher boost pressures would correspond to lower EGTs, since more air is moving through the engine at the same fueling level. However, beyond the mid to upper 20s, I believe the the HY-9 is outside of its efficiency map and is essentially pumping out hot air. Ergo, little or no real gain. It was designed for quick spoolup at lower boost pressures to meet federal emissions requriements. That means at high boost pressures, the poor compressor spins faster than it was designed to, putting the bearings and shafts at risk.



Now, those are the conclusions I come to based on the experimentation I have done. I haven't put an EZ on the dyno yet to measure with and without the elbow, and I haven't looked at the turbo's efficiency map (they are not published). So I'm reaching conclusions that are valid in my opinion, just not proven with statistical rigor.



so getting back to your truck. I would really appreciate your comments on whether or not you feel a difference in your truck's power without the boost level. Theory says you will see little to no difference (for example, you might feel the same power but EGTs might be slightly higher), but I'd like a reality check.

 

[rashwor]

On my '99 I installed the EZ in February of 2002. I did not install the boost elbow until May of 2002. Muffler removed in November of 2001 and remains off to present. Stock air filter and box since I bought the truck new in '99. I could not tell any difference in power at the seat of my pants and did not notice any real difference in EGTs, but there was no real towing between Feb and May and the ambient temperatures were cool.



JME on a second gen... probably worthless here.