Bush places tarriffs on foreign steel

[radixr]

Flat Tax

Gene,



The problem with a flat tax is you still need an IRS (and Congress) to dictate what is considered income; both business and personal. And you get hordes of gucci-clad lobbyists bribing legislators to get their definition of income exempt from tax. You also still have jack-booted IRS thugs snooping for untaxed "income". I don't like taxes either but a sales tax seems to be the fairest way and would eliminate 99% of the universally despised IRS. :-{}



Power Wagon is not advocating a sales tax on business. At the end of the road, the consumer pays all the taxes (including your beloved steel tariffs). We all agree that government needs some revenue -- we can disagree on how much and how best to raise it. What is your "favorite" tax?

 

[Sled Puller]

Favorite tax? Is there such a thing?



Biggest trouble with sales tax is people will look at that 40,000 dollar truck and say, I can afford that, and then the look at the sales tax.



What will it be under Powerwagons plan, 50% ????

Powerwagon does not care about new vehicle tax, or boat , or other fun , expensive toys, since he has no intentions of buying that stuff.

That is why he thinks sales tax is ok.





Add another 20,000 grand to that truck? is that what you guys are looking for?

Because it will turn out that people will buy less and less, so they will raise it more and more, then that won't be enough, and they will have new taxes and so forth.



Sales tax is a bottomless pit.

Pennsylvania is at 6% right now, it hurts on big stuff.

What is Oregons sales tax?



Buy a used car lately Radixr? They tax you on blue book value.



Pa's system: tax the new car, tax parts and fuel, tax it when you sell it, tax it again when you sell it, tax more parts and fuel, tax the fuel some more, road tax, you know, our roads are still bad, tax some more.





Now you want to let the FEDS in on that system?



Our tariffs should be equal to what other countrys charge us.



Hey, I'm all for canceling all taxes, if you guys can come up with a way to run the military.



Gene

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

You may hate sales tax. . but what about all of those people out there working for cash?

They are driving up our income taxes up by not paying theirs.



You can't always findout where someone gets their money but EVERYONE spends it. A sales tax would get the IRS out of our hair. Business already have a means to report and forfiet taxes collected.



You can have a lower/no tax on food to help the less privaleged.



Rich folks spend their money to so they would pay more taxes than the poor. the HUGE IRS Beurocracy would disappear and the would be less need for taxes.



A flat tax would be fair but would not reduce the collection expense that exists today (IRS).



I don't think that the tax codes will be significantly reformed anytime soon. The amount might change but the headache will remain.

 

[KMC]

Originally posted by Sled Puller

Favorite tax? Is there such a thing?



Sales tax is a bottomless pit.

Pennsylvania is at 6% right now, it hurts on big stuff.

What is Oregons sales tax?



Gene

Oregon has no sales tax. But they do have heavy property tax and income tax.



Washinton has no income tax but has sales tax. Just went up to 8. 9% in my area - now that hurts. 6% sounds kind of nice.



The Peoples Republic of California has both!



And you are right all fairly unconstitutional...



Man I wish Barry Goldwater had got ellected... . One of his greatest quotes in my opinion:



"I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution, or that have failed in their purpose, or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden.



"I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is 'needed' before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents' 'interests,' I shall reply that I was informed their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can. "





Ken

 

[me4osu]

Tax

Texas has a dumba## tax (AKA "State Lottery"), but no manditory state income tax.



Local governments (county and city) are left to determine their sales tax rate. I think Houston is around 8. 25%, and outside the city limits it drops to ~6. 5%.

 

[Power Wagon]

Originally posted by Sled Puller

Favorite tax? Is there such a thing?



Biggest trouble with sales tax is people will look at that 40,000 dollar truck and say, I can afford that, and then the look at the sales tax.



What will it be under Powerwagons plan, 50% ????

Powerwagon does not care about new vehicle tax, or boat , or other fun , expensive toys, since he has no intentions of buying that stuff.

That is why he thinks sales tax is ok.

Gene, ahem... I think ya need another cup of coffee... Or, maybe you need to lay off it totally... Dunno which



Estimates are, that more revenue than is now being collected could be raised by by a %17 retail sales tax, and that exempts such things as medical care, real estate, and other single large purchases. While it's true that tax would raise the price of of a $40,000 truck by 6800, it would raise our family's take-home income by $1000 a month. My brother and his wife would take home more than $2000 a month extra take-home pay. Would he consider it a fair trade to have to pay an extra 7 grand on a new truck? He'd be standing at the front of the line, shouting, GIVE IT TO ME!!!



For those of you, especially those of you with two incomes in the family, who want some idea of what a difference it would make, look at your wage stubs... Remove all deductions for Federal withholding, and all FICA... and then remember your employer's paying an ADDITIONAL FICA that matches yours... before he pays you. The loss of that demand, plus the reduced costs in managing wages and tax details would probably get you all of that second FICA and perhaps even more.



As for whether or not I ever plan on buying a new truck or other expensive items... I don't know. I have a terribly difficult time justifying that cost, when something for half the money will do the exact same job. Are the clicks on the odometer worth $20,000 to not have them? To some, yes. To others, no.



5 years from now, I expect that the wife and I together will be above 80% of the population for income... Not to say that's a lot of money, it really isn't. Will I buy a new truck? Probably not. I can think of a whole lot of other things it should go for first... Up to and including helping out some other people who need it.



Gene, you ask me to make an arguement FOR a tax... or the "good" parts of a tax. Are you nuts? Since when has ANY tax been a good thing? Not that I know of. I merely make the point that HOW the government generates it's income can and does have significant... possibly even drastic... . impact on the people, the economy, and the health of it's industrial and economic infrastructure. I argue for the least damaging type of federal taxation... and that's retail sales. It will encourage investment, business growth, risk capital, etc.



Right now, the debate among a lot of people is not "how much the government should have", but who it should screw getting it. Remove the ability to selectively nail and/or benefit groups or certain circumstances, and our debate will return to the one it should be... How much federal funding is ENOUGH federal funding? That arguement will never be made or become part of the public discourse, until the income tax diversion is abolished.

 

[CAM]

Imported steel is JUNK, if you ever worked with it ,you know what I mean!!!



Mike

 

[Sled Puller]

I don't drink coffe, maybe I was high on Diesel fumes?







Maybe instead of worrying about how to tax fairly,(there is no such thing) we should really PUSH for spending reform and Elected official wage/benefit/retirement cuts.



Elected officials should not make more than the average wage in their area. Maybe that would be a better start? HA!

Dream.

I hate taxes.

gene

 

[Steve M]

And here's the irony of it all. Not to single Mark out, but the thought in gereral.



"As for whether or not I ever plan on buying a new truck or other expensive items... I don't know. I have a terribly difficult time justifying that cost, when something for half the money will do the exact same job. Are the clicks on the odometer worth $20,000 to not have them? To some, yes. To others, no. "



I can't agree more but, if I were on the other end of the stick, the manufacturing end, and my consumers decided to only buy used items that I manufactured, I'd be in a pickle. I'd have to design my items to only last so long. The SAE does just that in hopes that people will replace their vehicles in about 80-100k miles with new ones. The market is fierce so the longevity is going up. The big three (and their hundreds of vendors providing thousands of jobs) suffer when we don't buy new vehicles. To me it's nice to have a new ride and it also feels good to know I'm giving some back to the economy that allows me to have these nice things in the first place. Our economy is not them. It's us and not just some of us. It's all of us.

Chinese steel? Ever have a Chinese socket shatter and send a particle under your skin? Suddenly that American made socket with it's higher price seems worth it. It could have been an eye.

 

[bvanetten]

Here's a couple of links about flat taxes.



http://flattax.house.gov

http://flattax.house.gov/faq/faq.asp







Russia has had a flat tax for a couple of years now. Look at the link and tell me if you think it has hurt them?



http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^MTMS&d=c&t=5y&l=on&z=b&q=l

 

[Sled Puller]

Benefits of the Flat Tax

Is the flat tax fair?

Sure it is. The flat tax is true to the uniquely American definition of fairness: it treats everyone the same. Under a flat tax, everyone plays under the same rules. And because of the high family allowance, the flat tax is also progressive. With the first $35,400 in income for a family of four exempt from tax, the poor pay nothing. Because of the exemption, a middle-class family earning $50,000 would pay the 17 percent tax rate on less than half of its income ($14,600) while a wealthy family would pay the 17 percent rate on most of its income.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Under that plan, I would save $334. Not near enough, 17% is still too much.

Our tax burdens need cut in half for a good start.



Under Powerwagons Plan, I could hide in the woods and pay 0 tax. Although that would be a popular plan, it ain't going to happen.



Lets say I took home $20,000 last year. It is ALL gone, so I have to assume I spent it, because I did not save or lose it.

if I SPENT it, Powerwagon TAXED it! So how much less would I have been able to buy?



Is that proper logic PW?

 

[Sled Puller]

Somebody already asked my question on that site:







Question: Is a national sales tax a better idea than a flat tax?

****************************************************

Answer:

No, the flat tax is a much better alternative to a national sales tax. The sales tax option has two fundamental flaws. First, because it is entirely unrealistic to expect that two-thirds of the House and Senate and three-quarters of the states would vote to repeal the 16th Amendment to the Constitution (which authorizes the income tax), by creating a sales tax Congress would, in effect, give itself a new taxing authority without eliminating the old one. This is a taxpayer's worst nightmare. Nothing would be worse for taxpayers than to have a federal income tax and a federal sales tax.



Second, a sales tax is hidden and easy for politicians to raise. Over the past few decades, there have been a number of significant taxpayer mobilizations against high income and property taxes that led to tax cuts, but there were no similar taxpayer revolts against sales taxes. No one knows what they pay in sales taxes, so there is less resistance to raising them. The fact is, sales taxes are less visible than other taxes which require taxpayers to either write a check to the government or at least make an accounting with the government at the end of the year. Also, almost every sales tax that has been implemented in the industrialized world has evolved into a European-style value-added tax (VAT), which is the most hidden tax of all.



**************************************************



Not saying I support the flat tax, just looking at all the options.

 

[SS]

Originally posted by Steve M

The SAE does just that in hopes that people will replace their vehicles in about 80-100k miles with new ones.

Steve M,



Can you show me the SAE paper that this is published in? Study? Research of any kind? Paper napkin? Give me a break - we're lucky with the Cummins being so overdesigned for the application - most vehicles only get what the customer is willing to pay for. The SAE has little financial gain if vehicles last 1 mile or 1 million miles. Sorry this is off-topic.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Sled Puller

Elected officials should not make more than the average wage in their area.

I'm sure the average wage in Eureka, CA is enough to live on in Washington, DC. Granted there are a lot of perks associated with elected office but let's be real.....





Brian

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Sled Puller

Somebody already asked my question on that site:







Question: Is a national sales tax a better idea than a flat tax?

****************************************************

Answer:

No, the flat tax is a much better alternative to a national sales tax. The sales tax option has two fundamental flaws. First, because it is entirely unrealistic to expect that two-thirds of the House and Senate and three-quarters of the states would vote to repeal the 16th Amendment to the Constitution (which authorizes the income tax), by creating a sales tax Congress would, in effect, give itself a new taxing authority without eliminating the old one. This is a taxpayer's worst nightmare. Nothing would be worse for taxpayers than to have a federal income tax and a federal sales tax.



Second, a sales tax is hidden and easy for politicians to raise. Over the past few decades, there have been a number of significant taxpayer mobilizations against high income and property taxes that led to tax cuts, but there were no similar taxpayer revolts against sales taxes. No one knows what they pay in sales taxes, so there is less resistance to raising them. The fact is, sales taxes are less visible than other taxes which require taxpayers to either write a check to the government or at least make an accounting with the government at the end of the year. Also, almost every sales tax that has been implemented in the industrialized world has evolved into a European-style value-added tax (VAT), which is the most hidden tax of all.



**************************************************



Not saying I support the flat tax, just looking at all the options.

I beg to differ - I know EXACTLY how much I'm paying in CA sales tax and do my best to avoid purchasing big ticket items in CA if at all possible. My truck was bought in OR, titled/registered in NM in order to reduce the sales tax from 8. 25% (LA County) down to 3%. In CA I believe the base sales tax is 5% and counties/cities add on top of that - in Sonoma County sales tax is 7. 75%.



I haven't decided which is less painful - fed sales tax or flat tax BUT I resent the fact that somebody thinks I'm too stupid to realize what I'm giving the govt when I purchase something.



Brian

 

[KMC]

Brian, I think the point Sled Puller was making is that we never really sit down and add up all of our receipts over the course of the year. On the big ticket items we are painfully aware for sure. But the total day in and day out we pay in sales tax we have no clue. I sure don't at any rate... I see the tax rate on my receipt but as for what it all adds up to who knows? But I definetly have a clue about my income tax when I see the totals come tax time in April.



Therefore because we clearly see the damage from income tax and don't clearly see the damage from sales tax as far as a total figure is concerned, we are less likely to be concerned about the latter.



Ken

 

[NVR FNSH]

touche.



How long ago was it that you could itemize sales tax?



Brian

 

[bvanetten]

"I resent the fact that somebody thinks I'm too stupid to realize what I'm giving the govt when I purchase something. "



Brian, You should be resentful because they do think you are to stupid to realize what your giving them. For those that HAVE half a brain they have the sales tax which is more difficult to keep track of. And better yet the fuel tax which you don't see at all! Brian, you are not the norm. When you finish you taxes and end up getting money back do you say " great, I'm getting $500 back this year!" or do you say " Crap! I had to pay $10,000 this year" Most people don't pay attention to the money they paid. One day at lunch I was talking to a guy at work about taxes. I told him that I like to come within $100 plus or minus on my taxes. He said he likes to claim as much as he can so he can get a bunch back. He treats it like a savings plan! That my friend is the avarage american! It's sad.



As much as I'd like to see tax reform I don't see it happening any time soon. Their are a lot of organizations making money off of our current structure. Do you know how big the lobby for CPA's or tax lawers is? I betcha it's huge.



A good start would be removing business taxes completely. Only a poor business man or a fool thinks business's pay tax. The one problem I see with the flat tax idea I posted is they want the same rate to apply to business's also. So what kind of burden does that put on the consumer? Ouch.



Bruce

 

[KMC]

Was there a time you could ever itemize sales tax? Not sure on that one...



Another big time ouch tax we have in Washinton State is an excise tax on the sale of a home. When you sell a house you have to pay a 4% tax !!!! Nice bite out of any equity gains wouldn't you say? This tax was supposed to be temporary for a couple of years way back when to pay for something or another, I can't remember what anymore. Well, once the politicians got used to the extra $$$ you can guess what happened - it never got taken off the books like it was supposed to. Greedy slobs... .



Ken

 

[Sled Puller]

That wasn't the point I was trying to make, but a good one non the less!

I was just posting a view that was against sales tax.



Don't you love those tempory taxes?



I believe there was a toll bridge once that they said the toll would come down after the bridge was paid for.

They kept their word, the toll came down a few years back. North west someplace. I wonder if it is back up?



The best thing that could happen to this country would be to bring home your gross pay, and your taxes would be a monthly bill.

That would wake up the masses.