Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Campaign lift pumps are junk too!

[elandon1201]

Alot of good points here, and maybe each are right in different views. I dont have experience to say one way or the other on a modified ISB in a Ram, but I can with no uncertainty say that almost evrey QSB engine (they come in 4 or 6 cyl, and use the VP44) does not use a lift pump of any sort. The engine has to crank long enough to pick up electronic loation sensors (Cam & Crank), that the internal charge pump can build up.

The QSB is an ag/ind. version of the ISB, pretty much picture 24v electronics and pump on a 12v engine.



bottom line guys, a VP44 can sart the engine without help



Remember this happens with minimal fuel line restriction, and the RASP may be enough to stop the process unless an electric pusher is involved to get fuel passed the RASP.



Just a little info to feed on.

Thank goodness some other people chimed in on the Don M approach I mentioned it earlier but finally gave up.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

A new camshaft and the labor required to change it out are not viable options for the average ISB owner looking for a more reliable fuel supply system. I was referring to an external bolt on system to replace the lift pump with a mechanical one while not having to pull and replace a camshaft.



Everyone who drives a 98. 5-2002 is well aware of every fuel supply system on the market. If one is after or needs a new camshaft, then by all means a Helix set up is the way to go.



But not for a guy who just wants to bolt on a fuel supply system in his driveway on the weekend. The cost and the labor required for the Don M system is simply a bit involved.



It would be nice if the RASP could start the engine. Mabye a simple bypass for engine starting would be the way to go, but I don't think the average VP-44 owner has the stones to try it. In an emergency, yeah. But everyday?

 

[BigPapa]

A new camshaft and the labor required to change it out are not viable options for the average ISB owner looking for a more reliable fuel supply system.

Maybe while your in there you could get rid of some of those extra valves. :-laf



Scott

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Maybe while your in there you could get rid of some of those extra valves. :-laf



Scott

I hear you, BigPapa!

 

[Lsfarm]

Obert, a question...

Obert, just where is the fuel tank on those AG/IND applications of the VP44 equiped engines? The tank is either level or above the VP44 providing gravity fuel feed. The engines are usually out in the open, not in an engine compartment which traps heat and causes the shed heat from the radiator and block to heat up the VP and it's electronics.



In the school bus application as well as the Ford 550 and larger applicatons there is an electrical lift pump making sure the VP has fuel to start on and excess for cooling and lubrication.



With any application where the fuel tank is below or too far away from the VP a pump is required. Excess fuel is also needed to provide lubricaton and remove excess heat and return it to the fuel tank where there is a lot of surface area to shed the heat.



The tiny little gear pump internal in the VP is not intended to be a suction-feed supply pump to the VP, it needs a positive pressure supply. Either gravity or pumped. Ever notice that our lift pump runs for a few seconds each time the key is turned on?? This is to make sure the VP has a prime, then the lift pump runs continously once the starter is engaged or the engine running.



Do a search here for 'changed my fuel filter, truck started, died and won't restart'. You will find dozens of threads where the VP had a prime and then couldn't ingest, digest, the volume of air in the fuel filter canister after it was drained during the filter change. The lift pump is needed to push fuel to the VP in any non gravity-fed application.



In another fuel related applicaton, airplanes have their fuel inside the wings, and they have submerged electric fuel pumps pushing fuel to the engines, even when the engines are mounted under the wing which is a gravity-feed position. The engines have small gear-type pumps in their high-pressure injection pumps, but need positive pressure to operate reliably. If the electric pumps are inop, then the aircraft has an altitude limitation because of the reduced air pressure at higher alitudes to push fuel to the high pressure pump. Gear pumps like to have positive feed pressure, otherwise they cavitate and are short lived.



Just some thoughts. Greg L

 

[BigPapa]

I hear you, BigPapa!

Sorry, I just couldn't control myself.



Scott

 

[Fishin Guide]

A new camshaft and the labor required to change it out are not viable options for the average ISB owner looking for a more reliable fuel supply system.

I disagree. The cam and pump are still competitively priced when compared to some of the other "exotic" solutions. Labor is cheap enough.

If one is after or needs a new camshaft, then by all means a Helix set up is the way to go.

Agreed!

But not for a guy who just wants to bolt on a fuel supply system in his driveway on the weekend. The cost and the labor required for the Don M system is simply a bit involved.

How about in less than a weekend? Maybe less than a day? How about in hours? That's all it took me to do it. And I am not a mechanic.



Again, it comes down to what you feel comfortable with. I added an F1 cam for the lift pump aspect ALONE! What I found with the additional cam benefits were simply unexpected and amazing to me.



So, while you may not have the ability, time or money to do a cam and pump, I feel it's the BEST fix on the market. It is the only fix that I can go to any truck parts supply house and buy a replacement pump off the shelf and get back on the road.



I love not having to have 2 pumps. Or an electric pump of any kind.



BTW, when I was researching my own electric lift pump fix I learned the following. After talking with Bill and Stephan at DTT, the RASP will start the engine without the need for an electric pump at all. The only reason for the stock lift pump is to act as a backup to a broken belt and that will keep the truck running. Pretty handy if you are pulling a mountain pass with a trailer and have nowhere to run if the engine dies.



Dave

 

[RHulette]

I would imagine his concern isn't as much over the actual PSI the pump is currently supplying, but the funny noises, and the FLUCTUATION of PSI that frequently is a sign of a dying pump...



I'd be concerned too!

You're right Gary, the funky squealing noises accompanied by the drop in pressure from 15 to 10, then 9, then 7 now is what gets me ticked off. The damn pump only has a little over 2k miles on it... jeez - what a pain...



Heck if it would actually stay at 10 psi, I could put up with the squealing pig noise, but it just keeps heading down.



I'll pull it out when it starts nosing down around 5psi.



Randy

 

[nps]

You're right Gary, the funky squealing noises accompanied by the drop in pressure from 15 to 10, then 9, then 7 now is what gets me ticked off. The damn pump only has a little over 2k miles on it... jeez - what a pain...



Heck if it would actually stay at 10 psi, I could put up with the squealing pig noise, but it just keeps heading down.



I'll pull it out when it starts nosing down around 5psi.



Randy

Mine was dropping - down to about 7psi idle and 4 psi WOT. I put a Carter 4600 pusher by the tank and it bumped it up to 13psi idle and 9 psi WOT and it has been stable for about 6 months.



I think I have an oil leak behind the block off plate that is the LP bracket. I'll get in to fix it in a couple weeks, and will probably throw on one of the campaign pumps while I'm down there - should put me at 16/12. Otherwise I'd let this one keep going.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I disagree. The cam and pump are still competitively priced when compared to some of the other "exotic" solutions. Labor is cheap enough.







You disagree? No you don't:



I did it myself and the number of special tools are limited. This is a job for the mechanically inclined however.



Dave



Your talkin' on both sides of the fence, Fishin'. Pick an opinion.



All this to install a lift pump???!! Whew!



Not exactly. The motor gets very little removed. Everyhting in front of the cam comes out. CAC, Radiator, I pulled the bumper, but not a requirement, pull the coolers out of the way, fan shroud, fan, fan hub, and gear cover, but not the case. On the top end, I pulled the entire valve train, pushrods, ect.



You do need a special tool that can easily be fabricated or purchased to catch and hold the tappets in place when the cam is out. Also, a line and plug to pull the tappets back into the bores if they were removed and some wooden dowels and rubber bands to hold the tappets in place.



Hardest part of the entire job for me was pressing off the cam gear and getting the gear on the new cam. When that was done, it was all gravy and install is the reverse of removal.



Dave



C'mon, Dave!

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I disagree. The cam and pump are still competitively priced when compared to some of the other "exotic" solutions. Labor is cheap enough.







Agreed!







How about in less than a weekend? Maybe less than a day? How about in hours? That's all it took me to do it. And I am not a mechanic.



Again, it comes down to what you feel comfortable with. I added an F1 cam for the lift pump aspect ALONE! What I found with the additional cam benefits were simply unexpected and amazing to me.



So, while you may not have the ability, time or money to do a cam and pump, I feel it's the BEST fix on the market. It is the only fix that I can go to any truck parts supply house and buy a replacement pump off the shelf and get back on the road.



I love not having to have 2 pumps. Or an electric pump of any kind.



BTW, when I was researching my own electric lift pump fix I learned the following. After talking with Bill and Stephan at DTT, the RASP will start the engine without the need for an electric pump at all. The only reason for the stock lift pump is to act as a backup to a broken belt and that will keep the truck running. Pretty handy if you are pulling a mountain pass with a trailer and have nowhere to run if the engine dies.



Dave

Like I said, your'e gonna need the FASS anyway!

 

[Fishin Guide]

I disagree. The cam and pump are still competitively priced when compared to some of the other "exotic" solutions. Labor is cheap enough.







You disagree? No you don't:



I did it myself and the number of special tools are limited. This is a job for the mechanically inclined however.



Dave



Your talkin' on both sides of the fence, Fishin'. Pick an opinion.



All this to install a lift pump???!! Whew!



Not exactly. The motor gets very little removed. Everyhting in front of the cam comes out. CAC, Radiator, I pulled the bumper, but not a requirement, pull the coolers out of the way, fan shroud, fan, fan hub, and gear cover, but not the case. On the top end, I pulled the entire valve train, pushrods, ect.



You do need a special tool that can easily be fabricated or purchased to catch and hold the tappets in place when the cam is out. Also, a line and plug to pull the tappets back into the bores if they were removed and some wooden dowels and rubber bands to hold the tappets in place.



Hardest part of the entire job for me was pressing off the cam gear and getting the gear on the new cam. When that was done, it was all gravy and install is the reverse of removal.



Dave



C'mon, Dave!

All that cutting and pasting and yet I can install a cam in about the time it takes the average guy to install an electric pump, wire it and drop the tank to upgrade the lines.



Not to mention the fact that once my install is done, it's done for many miles. I'll bet the average electric pump guy spends more time on his back adjusting springs, replacing brushes and changing filters.



Even if it took a full weekend to install, I am way ahead of the game. I can still get off the shelf parts anywhere, anytime. I'll be helping a buddy swapa cam real soon. I am gonna venture a guess that we are in and out in less than 3 hours.



Just say NO to electric pumps!!



Dave

 

[Fishin Guide]

Like I said, your'e gonna need the FASS anyway!

Nope, no overpriced electric pump required. With the RASP and the new MitUSA, just a little lowly stock pump is used for a backup. Of course, a simple belt that is carried in the truck can be installed roadside.



And, the belt is available almost anywhere. Try that with your FASS.



If I had a FASS on the truck, I would insist on having a backup pump for that one as well!



Dave

 

[ThrottleJockey]

All that cutting and pasting and yet I can install a cam in about the time it takes the average guy to install an electric pump, wire it and drop the tank to upgrade the lines.



Not to mention the fact that once my install is done, it's done for many miles. I'll bet the average electric pump guy spends more time on his back adjusting springs, replacing brushes and changing filters.



Even if it took a full weekend to install, I am way ahead of the game. I can still get off the shelf parts anywhere, anytime. I'll be helping a buddy swapa cam real soon. I am gonna venture a guess that we are in and out in less than 3 hours.



Just say NO to electric pumps!!



Dave

"Hey Dave! Would you help a buddy install a fuel pump?"



"Sure! First were gonna rip out that old cam..... "

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Nope, no overpriced electric pump required. With the RASP and the new MitUSA, just a little lowly stock pump is used for a backup. Of course, a simple belt that is carried in the truck can be installed roadside.



And, the belt is available almost anywhere. Try that with your FASS.



If I had a FASS on the truck, I would insist on having a backup pump for that one as well!



Dave

Uh, Dave. The FASS don't HAVE a belt.



The Rasp REQUIRES you to have a backup pump! It's in the intructions!



Dave, you gotta admit the FASS is less money than a 12 valve lift pump and a Helix camshaft! :-laf

 

[Fishin Guide]

Dave, you gotta admit the FASS is less money than a 12 valve lift pump and a Helix camshaft! :-laf

True. Well, until you get to replace that FASS with another one... .



Dave

 

[ThrottleJockey]

True. Well, until you get to replace that FASS with another one... .



Dave

Yeah, that's true also... .

 

[obert]

Obert, just where is the fuel tank on those AG/IND applications of the VP44 equiped engines?

on the equipment I see at work, the top of the tank is about a foot below and 8 or so feet away from the pump. Check out JLG's Skytrak RTF.



I still stand that the VP can run with no LP. Im probly not the only person here to have seen it happen-- for a short time anyway, and knock on wood the vp is still alive many miles later.



However, before even reading the response, I realized there is a fault in my comment. There MUST be something to help the VP. Prime on startup?? What about a filter change? Our CAV pump engines have a hand pump "primer bulb" in-line to bleed the system.



Unfortunately, the newest RTF's are off the lot at work, and will be for a while, so I couldn't go out to see for shure what the fuel system was composed of.



Just to keep somewhat to the topic, my campaign LP is still running good, but not many miles yet (>1500).

 

[Fishin Guide]

Obert,



I believe that the VP does not need a pump for a typical application. If you look at farm machinery nd the like, the engine runs at a pretty constant speed and fuel demands are constant. Also, you are not running the volume of fuel that a BOMBed truck consumes.



Yes, there are many VP applications with only a simple primer bulb. In these applications, there is no pump to get in the way of the flow of fuel from the tank to the VP. So, a weak pump may do more harm than good by acting as a restriction in the fuel inlet supply.



Dave

 

[Silver Bullet Ram]

Ok here are my questions. How does the vp44 get primed with the mechanical 12v lift pump? How about the fuel pressure, isn't it too much? And how about flow, is there enough? I too have thought about the camshaft swap and everytime I do someone asks me these questions.



Gary