Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) caTCHER ecm (Marco's aka MAD)

[Marco]

rubberneck,

What you've been told is probably what I've said here on TDR several times.



What I know for sure is that I've seen several DC softwares that had a fuelling map which caused that problem in MY truck. I changed the fuel map, the problem was cured.



So I said that on TDR...



No, none of the trucks with that problem has ever had an ECM of mine. ( As far as I know )



No, I'm not certain that the problem YOU have is the same to what "I" have seen. Sure enough every time I hear about that problem how and when it occurs, it sounds da# the same to what I've seen.



I CAN NOT say for SURE but I THINK that "this strange shudder or bucking under load at moderate throttle. It is most pronounced between 18-2300 rpm. The bigger injectors I add, or more fueling box, the worse it gets" is caused by the ECM software.



So the verdict is still out... .



Marco

 

[jcbrown]

Originally posted by rubberneck

Hesitation under moderate throttle.

Called Engine Surge. Feel's like the engine is bucking. Fueling boxes cause this problem.



I've experienced it with several different boxes three years ago.

 

[Marco]

Fueling boxes cause this problem

Yes and no.



Think about a box as an amplifier.

Do you remember the vinyl LP's? After a few times you had listend to them they were full of scratches. With a moderate volume you wouldn't hear them. Raise the volume and they sounded like **#§... very anoying.



Could be that the same happens with the boxes. With a stock engine the bucking is so low that you can't feel it. Add the "amplifiers" like bigger injectors and boxes to that scenario you get more power but also more bucking to the point that it becomes noticeable and anoying.



Marco

P. S. Guy's please notice that I say COULD

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

At some point the cruise moved from a vacuum operated servo to ECM controlled but I'm not sure when that happened. In my 98. 5 it's vacuum controlled and I have the vacuum line partially restricted and it works great. It's slow to initially apply but at least it doesn't surge up and down.

 

[paulb]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

"Marco said just exactly that in a prior post yesterday. When CC is activated, the throttle/APPS is taken out of the circuit UNLESS its' position relative to power required is greater than the CC setting.



Perhaps - but he ALSO said in response to the suggestion to "needle valve" the CC vacuum servo line:



"Is it that simple?

WOW, great I have to try it out!

Thanks!"

I have a late production date 02, with an auto trans, and it has the vacuum servo under the driver side battery.

 

[Blackbird]

Observations relating to APPS & CC.



Late '02 ETH.



APPS reading = 0 with CC applied (seen through OBD-II)

If throttle @ any other position then idle, i. e. APPS reading NOT=0, CC drops out, not disconnects, just drops, e. g. touch throttle pedal truck slows, accelerate to pass & let off CC will pick back up. This is similar to engine brake controlled by ECM, brake won't operate unless foot completely off throttle (to be followed by a DELAY!!!! #$@#%*&(@!#) Sorry another pet peeve to pursue in a different thread.



Jay

 

[RustyJC]

My very early 2002 (see signature) that we ordered has a build date of 7/31/01 and a delivery date of 8/15/01. ECM-driven cruise control - no vacuum actuator.



If there were no delay for e-brake function built into the ECM, the e-brake would engage and disengage on every shift with a manual transmission. Given that alternative, I'll live with the delay. To each his/her own.



Rusty

 

[Blackbird]

Originally posted by Marco

Do you remember the vinyl LP's?

Your age is showing.

The young pups here won't get this.



Jay

 

[darkhorse]

Reguarding CC issues: I checked my 2001 service manual. Diesels with auto trans used a vacuum servo, those with manual trans are all electronic.

 

[Blackbird]

Originally posted by RustyJC

If there were no delay for e-brake function built into the ECM, the e-brake would engage and disengage on every shift with a manual transmission. B]

I'm just used to the real deal.



If clutch & throttle are up brake is on. If either is depressed brake is off. Maybe we need a switch on the clutch. And if you don't use the clutch, you can still hold the e-brake off with light pressure on the throttle.



Jay

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by Blackbird

I'm just used to the real deal.



If clutch & throttle are up brake is on. If either is depressed brake is off. Maybe we need a switch on the clutch. And if you don't use the clutch, you can still hold the e-brake off with light pressure on the throttle.

Yep, tying it to the clutch might be OK - the switch, of course, is already there since it won't crank unless the clutch is depressed. Just some programming.....



And I do use the clutch when shifting - lots of threads about the differences between synchronized transmissions (like the NV5600) and unsynchronized transmissions (like the Eaton/Fullers, etc. ).



But, anyway, back to the ECM discussions.



Rusty

 

[rubberneck]

Marco, I agree with you, the fuel box does not "cause" the problem in my truck, only makes it worse. As do the bigger injectors. Although it is very slight, once you know what to "feel", it is there totally stock in my truck. You may have been the source of my info, I can not remember. I just kind of figured i had to live with it, so i quit researching it. I have tried many different boxes on my truck, none of them seemed to make it better or worse relative to each other, just worse than stock. I will tell you this, the bigger turbo helps the problem. My assumption was that the lower boost levels at a given throttle postion more closely follow what a stock truck would make and therefore, there is less conflict with the programing. thanks for the great info and the time to post it. I am sold, I think its worth a shot to try.



PS for you guys fixated on the cruise control. My truck was built 2/01 and i have the fully electronic cruise. No servo. It is a stick and was built here in the US. My buddies truck is just a couple of months older and has the servo.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Sounds like some people are willing to sit on the side of the road and wait for a tow truck... that's unreal.



Eating a VP-44 because you tapped the wire is completely different than having a downed truck because your ECM took a dump. The VP-44 issue has been drawn out over thousands of threads and it is a known risk.



Putting an ECM in your truck with different software should not necessitate taking a risk. If the product comes with disclaimers stating that it is a risky proposition - the owner ought to take appropriate precautions... like carrying a spare ECM!



Nobody said that this is a risky swap or that it will leave you on the side of the road. I just want to make sure that nothing is sugar coated and that people fully understand what they are getting themselves into.



Matt

 

[Marco]

HoleshotHolset,



Let me see if I can make you understand. Simply put,



The single file ECM's have been tested for over three years.



They are 100% failure free.



I have six customers here in Europe who use their trucks to earn their bread. Towing 20K on regular basis over/in the Alps.



NEVER a problem.



Also, if you read my previous MSG's in this thread it should be beyond any doubt that I don't want to sugar coat anything.



Simple facts, not more not less.



One more time. The ECM's with MULTIPLE softwares have had a lot of problems. That's why we dropped that ball. The single software ECM's have NOT had a single failure.



Did the message come through this time?



Marco

 

[darkhorse]

Hey Marco, I got the message! My spare ECM is UPSing it's way as I type. I'll want to keep my original ECM for several reasons, the least of which is anticipating reliability problems. I have no problem justifying your full price, it seems more than fare. I know little of bits & byts but I do know how I'd like my truck to respond. I fully expect my expectations to be met & even exceded.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Glad we are getting some of the minor issues out of the way - fewer unresolved issues = LESS unhappy or disgruntled costomers!



Now I better understand the CC issue as it applies to '02 trucks - and I'm like the guy further above who stated his serious need for CC - I have had 2 back surgeries, but earlier back problems have left me with some nerve damage to my feet and lower legs - CC is an absolute MUST for me on longer trips - and my truck is used for RV towing in exactly those types of scenarios!



Some consider me a nit-picker on a few issues - but while some mistatement of fact is understandable from a casual user, I feel it is important to be a bit more precise when dealing with the actual MAKER of a product (bypass oil filters comes to mind... ) in order to not create confusion or misunderstanding - I applaud Marco for his candor and what appears to be an excellent upgrade for our ECMS - Thanks for all your effort and help Marco!

 

[Chipstien]

Cool. Thanks Darkhorse. So we narrowed down that in 01 or 02 the manual trucks switched to fully ECM controlled cruise control. One more reason to get an Auto. Now the question is whether this was in 01 or 02.





HH, I am not sure why this ECM rubbs you the wrong way. I would say that about the only thing causing an ECM to drop dead would be an EMP. And if this is the case then we have far greater problems to worry about then whether our trucks run. Oh sure, Even if Marco was God Himself there is bound to be failures. However there will surely be far less then all the others combined. And IF a ECM fails it will be the hardware not the software. So if the hardware fails it is because of the manufacterer of the ECM, not the programer who installed a bunch of 1's and 0's.





Gary, there is still hope with the CC. Just install a larger housing on the turbo. My surging went away after I installed the PDR-50. By the time the turbo built boost the CC had already gottan to where it wanted to be and had let off.

 

[Marco]

Maybe telling you facts has brought me a little "off road".



Thinking about it, we've never tested how the electronic CC performs with the CaTCHER...



I really don't have an answer here...



Gary - KJ6Q,



I highly respect your decision to wait for a while an see how things will work.



What I really can't stand is... .

Sounds like some people are willing to sit on the side of the road and wait for a tow truck... that's unreal... .



What risk??? How does he know that there's the risk of the CaTCHER failing? Maybe he knows my stuff better than me?:--)



Got my point?



Marco



P. S. Just noticed HH's sigbature. No VP truck there... ... ??????

 

[jtisdale]

This only works on the 24 valves, right?

 

[SRadke]

Originally posted by Chipstien

So we narrowed down that in 01 or 02 the manual trucks switched to fully ECM controlled cruise control. One more reason to get an Auto.

Quite the contrary... My ECM controlled CC work flawlessly even with the power turned way up. The only thing it doesn't allow for is the power level at a set throttle position so when you push resume on a high power level be ready to go for a ride. I've seen 35 psi boost accelerating on CC.



-Scott