CDL and GVWR Info.

[QRTRHRS]

Anyone pulling a gooseneck horse trailer have any comments on this forum? Would this fall under farm use? Trailer empty/loaded weights? Number of horses you haul? Licensed trailer weight? Experiances crossing state lines?
My current needs are just local use with a 2 horse bumper pull. A few years down the road, I will be needing a gooseneck and will be running interstate for shows.

 

[R.E. Miller]

Don't fret folks, being a landscaper who has more then just a pick-up and a wheelbarrow I know that this topic is hot. IMO, soon you will have to carry a different class of CDL for trucks that are larger then 3/4 ton. Here in MD the roads suck, everyone has a new car that is capable to travel at twice any speed limit, eight cell phones ringing, and no real driving experiance. The new age person has never worked with their hands and may never, now thru our lovely government, the total responsiblity of every living thing will be placed in our hands. Think about it, eventhough none of us want to; no one on the road understands how trucks work, handle, stop, drive, nor do they care UNTIL YOU WRECK. Then the trucker is the bad guy no matter what his records state, it is his fault. Sorry I am not living in a shed in the woods, but the lack of other peoples common sense makes our work more difficult, and the government loves stupid people. I'm going to go spill coffee on my lap HE HE HE #ad
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1992 W-350 Club Cab Dually 3. 5" straight pipe(thanks jardine!)
W-350 8' contractors dump with 3. 5"BD exhaust, 16cm^2 housing, DI pyro&boost
Russell

 

[rob10858]

the "hauling for hire" rules are also complexing. weve all seen the vehicles on the road such as the mini freightliners, etc pulling rvs, souv trailors for racing, and most have not for hire stickers mounted somewhere on their rig. in my humble opinion, the hiring for haul means that you are in the business of hauling someone else load from point a to point b, and should cover your bases by having all the proper paperwork and neccessary licences. the kicker here is that the equip that we haul is ours, not someone elses, we pay for the ins, etc. we dont get paid by the mile, we dont charge our customer freight, we just get to the job, do our work, and go home. i dont get paid to tow, i get paid to "keep golf green" i might be wrong, but i just dont see how someone that hauls equip to perform a job can be considered a "carrier" after all, its just a matter of opinions.

 

[R.E. Miller]

packman,
I think that the point that the gov is trying to make is if you in any way produce revenue with what you hook-up to your truck, that is commerce, you are their business #ad
It sucks to have to deal with the anus pucker nit picker detail they want, but on the other hand, sorry cost of business is high in your district price increase #ad
.

 

[Alan Reagan]

Check out this Michigan site. This is the same thing the State of Georgia finally told me. Based on this site, the statement is based on federal law that towing a vehicle or trailer over 10,000 requires a CDL.
http://gopher. sos. state. mi. us/drlic/cdl_req.html

In 1986, the United States Congress passed the Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act establishing a uniform licensing system for all commercial drivers in all 50 states. The goals of the federal law are to:

provide uniform commercial license nationwide,
prevent drivers from having multiple licenses,
improve driver testing, both written and road testing,
ensure driver fitness through minimum physical standards, and
impose strong penalties for poor performance and alcohol and/or drug abuse.
You will need a commercial driver license (CDL) if you:

a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more,
or
tow a vehicle or trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating over 10,000 pounds,
or
drive a bus designed to carry 16 or more passengers (including the driver),
or
drive a vehicle transporting hazardous materials in amounts requiring the display of a placard.

I think states such as Texas can still do what they want, but when you cross state lines it becomes a federal issue.

 

[rob10858]

alan now you see what ive been trying to say, according to the mich regs all vehicles that pull trailors that gross over 10000 lbs would be considered commercial. that is not what the FEDERAL laws imply. beleive it or not the federal laws are very simple and to the point. go to the usdot commercial regs and then compare them to your state regs, they wont match up. try traveling in 10 different states and meeting every different level of requirement. ive said it before and ill say it again, up until jan 1 2001, all that would happen would be a written warning, accompanied by a copy to be sent back to the usdot, to give you 30 days for compliance. now you will be fined and impounded until whatever violation that you are written up for is corrected. the best way to handle the grey matter in this situation is to use yours, let them have their say, then prove them wrong in court. heres another idea for everyone that belongs to a motor club, [aaa, nmc, etc. ] if you are ticketed use that $200 allowance, get a lawyer, and fight it. we have and weve never paid a fine yet. the trouble is the motor clubs are like ins co's they will only put up with so many claims before they ***** . heres the kicker, i have ten trucks and trailors that are covered under our mc,and it was told very simply to me, that as far as they were concerned, we were not commercial, and would be covered under their group plan. it just gets stranger and stranger.

 

[Alan Reagan]

I agree Packman. I emailed the USDOT yesterday morning about the weights and have received no response. I'm in the Coast Guard Reserve (part of the DOT) and you would think I could get an answer in writing from them. I'll keep trying. I vaguely remember on the DOT website I was looking at for information that it said something about the weight limits AND traveling interstate. That's why I made the comment above about states do what they want but once you cross into other states, you MAY fall under different rules depending on the weight and distribution of weight. I'm still working on getting a final answer from the DOT. I have a CDL but don't carry the physical exam card cause I'm not driving for hire. I wonder if I'm stopped would I be fined? Probably not, but I could be and then would have to spend the time and money to get it dropped.

 

[Boldt's Wagon]

From the DOT at:
http://www.fmcsa. dot.gov/safetyprogs/cdl.htm

Drivers need CDLs if they are in interstate, intrastate, or foreign commerce and drive a vehicle that meets one of the following definitions of a CMV:

Classes of License:

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GCWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.

The difference between Class A and Class B appears to be the Class A CDL is licensed to tow trailers (GCWR) and Class B CDL is not licensed to tow trailers but can drive a truck to carry over 26,001 lbs (GVWR). The Class B allows towing a small trailer up to 10,000 lbs.

The GCWR or GVWR of your tow vehicle (on the vehicle license), determines if you need a CDL provided you are towing something for hire or used in commerce.

The case of using your RAM to tow your backhoe to the next job (e. g. backhoe for hire) could get you a ticket if weighed and the total is over 26,001 lbs. Your 3500 truck was licensed for GVWR, should have been licensed for GCWR, and you need a CDL.

The federal law implies that a RV with a combined weight over 26,001 lbs still does not require a CDL if towing for your own use. That is probably why you periodically see big rigs with "Not for hire" painted on the door. I would check regulations for GCWRs over 26001 more carefully. Someone delivering big fifth wheels (combined rig weight over 26,001 lbs) for pay with a RAM needs a Class A CDL.



[This message has been edited by Boldt's Wagon (edited 02-28-2001). ]

 

[R.E. Miller]

Thanks for the good info, yikes. #ad

 

[rob10858]

we register our one tons at 25999 gross, we register our trailors at whatever the axle wghts dictate. the fifth wheel that i pull is a tandem axle 10 ton gross. when i scale loaded, im at 23500 lbs pretty consistantly. i have much more trailor than i need as far as axle weight goes, but i like the 8 wheels on the ground vs 4, the awesome brakes, and the better ride when running empty. the trick here is that i could overload the hitch capacity if i ran the trailor fully loaded. the problemn that i had with the reg 5th wheel trailors that we run with 6ooo ld axles is that by the time that you considered the weight of the trailor and our load, we were right at the weight limits of the axles and tires, especially tires. from what ive learned, and this has been preached to me enough to know, your truck registration needs to carry the gross of the truck, trailor, and load. so if the combination is less than 26001, i still dont see commercial regs applying to alot of us. what they look for is someone that is carrying a regular gross on the truck and trailor and thinking that the combination of the two, if under 26001 exempts them from weight regs. its like my boss was saying to me on our last trip, "i really dont think that they consider us commercial, but they do want to check that we have the proper wght regs for what we are hauling" its the dot men that cant understand that fine line that can make life miserable.

 

[Alan Reagan]

My earlier post about Georgia agrees with you, Packman. If for some reason the DOT pulls you over or you are involved in an accident and the State Patrol investigates, on of the first things they will do is check the info plate on the truck to see if you may be exceeding the GCVW. Also, GA has the 10,000 lb rule for towed trailers/vehicles which indicates you are supposed to have a CDL if you exceed 10,000. I finally got a number for the Federal Highway Safety Program and will call them in Atlanta this morning and see if there is an answer to this question. I'll try to get them to email the answer so I can post it.

 

[Alan Reagan]

Allright, Finally got an answer from the US DOT field office in Atlanta. According to them the DOT is only interested in commercial stuff. However if you are pulling equipment to a job and cross state lines you come under federal jurisdiction for weight limits and driver's license classifications. On the RV side there are no rules from the DOT because it is state. And to everyone's relief (I'm sure) all states have reciprocal agreements concerning license classes. In other words, if you get your license in Texas and can haul any weight you can pull, then if you come through Georgia, the license is honored. Still you may have a problem if involved in an accident and you exceed the GCVR. Hope this helps. By the way, this is part of the CFR part 383 and the following was the interpretation of the rules... .

Question 3: Does part 383 apply to drivers of recreational vehicles?
Guidance: No, if the vehicle is used strictly for non-business purposes.


There you go. Alan

 

[whiteknight]

After reading the posts on this subject I e-mailed the Missouri Highway Patrol for their advice. A Commercial Vehicle officer said the same thing that if you are operating a vehicle in commerce you may need a CDL. One example he gave was a cabinet maker that has a truck, now the cabinet maker is not engaged in a for hire operation, but he needs to use a truck to get his cabinets from his shop to the place where the cabinets are to be installed. He says that CDL regulations may be applicable even for an RV if it is being operated in a business enterprise, such as hauling crafts to craft shows for the purpose of selling those crafts.

One point he made though would apply to everyone that is towing a trailer. He said that you need to make sure that the licensed weight of the truck is sufficient to cover the truck, trailer and everything carried on the truck and in the trailer. I see many trucks that are already illegal because they are overweight on their license. At least in MO they will ticket you for that. I run 18,000lb plates on my truck for that very reason.

 

[rickhans]

Whiteknight, I don't think I agree with him. If you read the DOT regulation above for CDL requirements, it says hauling for commercial purposes AND the vehicle (and trailor if applicable) must meet one of the 3 requirements listed. If the vehicle does not fall into one of those you don't need a CDL.

From other postings, I don't believe that states can have any other CDL requirements.

Also, not all states license pickups by weight. Texas does not. They, and the DOT, go by the GVW that is stamped on the tag on the door jam plus the licensed weight of the trailer. This info I got straight from the Texas DPS License and weight enforcement office.

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98. 5 24V QC 4x4 SB 3:54 5sp

 

[Alan Reagan]

Rick, You are correct on not needing the CDL if the use is private. That's from the USDOT. Again all states have reciprical agreements on licenses so there is not a problem there. Different states, however such as California and Maryland can required a different class of license for towing but the license is only for residents.

 

[whiteknight]

Maybe I wasn't clear, the examples he gave was taking into account that the vehicle and/or traiiler met the weight requirements for a CDL. The fine line is the definition of personal use and used in commerce. Basicly he said you MAY need a CDL if you are operating a vehicle in one of the examples he gave and met the weight requirements. So if you are operating a vehicle that meets the weight requirements and you you using the vehicle for anything other than personal or recreational use you may need to look into getting a CDL.

Another problem exsists when you cross state lines. The feds leve it up to each state to enforce the law and each state may enterpet the law and the definition of used in commerce differently. I know that doesn't sound correct but that is just the way it is. I install and service fire alarm systems for a living and although there are model codes that are the exactly same used from one area to another, their interpetation and enforcment by code officals very gertly at times. Also enforcement of the CDL regs fall under different agencies or departments with-in the states. In some states the highway patrol has a division who's only responsability is vehicle code enforcement. This is who I talked to. He is a commercial vehicle enforcement officer of the MO highway patrol. A highway patrol officer may stop you for speeding ect. but it will be more likley that a vehicle code enforcement officer that will stop you to check to see if you are in compliance with the CDL requirments and also I have known them to check trailer hitch connections, trailer lights, trailer brakes including breakaway switch if required.

As far as the license weight requirement, there are states including MO, AR, and KY that I know for sure that do license pickups by weight and in those cases you have to be midful of the combined weight of your vehicle.

Bottom line since my 11,400lb camping trailer is used only for my fishing and hunting trips, I am fine and dandy with the law so all I just said I don't have to worry about.

 

[MikeJ]

Rick
The original license in Tx might go by the door sticker but you can up it to whatever you want and it will cost you more money. My 3500 was originally licensed for 10,500 and I jumped it up to 14,000 lbs the 1st time and then up to 15,000 lbs the last time. Each time it cost more to register because of the weight. I didn't go any higher on the registration because it was getting close to the tire rating. This is just on the TRUCK, not truck and trailer. I have gone through the Tx and La scales several times grossing over 10,500 and have only been asked for my paperwork 1 time and they were satisfied with my 15,000 lb registration. I do have a CDL with hazmat endorsement, I'm leased to a trucking co. , and I have to log, so I can't address the RV situation.

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1997 3500 club cab, 10' flatbed, 3:54, auto, 4 Firestone air bags, 307,000+ miles

 

[jponder]

Originally posted by Alan Reagan:
Rick, You are correct on not needing the CDL if the use is private. That's from the USDOT. Again all states have reciprical agreements on licenses so there is not a problem there. Different states, however such as California and Maryland can required a different class of license for towing but the license is only for residents.

There is one Class of Georgia license you left out... ... ... ... .....

REVOKED!!!!!!! #ad




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2001 ETH/DEE ST 4X4 SPACE SHUTTLE