Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Clutch help

[Blademan]

I have a 2001 3500 quad-cab 4x4 with the HO 245 and a 6-speed. I drove the truck stock for years and got 100,000 miles plus with no problems with stock clutch. Did some engine work a couple years ago, so I added power at that time. Smarty set at #9, RV 275's, FASS, ARP Head Studs, 4 inch exhaust, Autometer gauges. First clutch was a South Bend 1947-OFEK, but it wasn't what I was expecting as far as being a bit grabby starting out. So I went back down to a 1947-OKHD. It is starting to slip after 10,000 miles when towing my 6000 pound trailer.

I have no idea what kind of power my truck is making. I plow snow with the truck, but not commercially, so I would still like the clutch to engage smoothly. I am planning on buying a fifth wheel toy hauler this summer too that might weigh 13,500 pounds or more.

Any ideas for what to use? Does anyone have any experience with the South Bend SDD 3250-6-ORG?

 

[RVTRKN]

In this situation, a dual disk clutch might help you with what you like, and still have holding power. You will have more noise though. I'll assume you have the NV5600, they can emit the NVH noise at low RPM. Mine did, but that was with the stock clutch, you might want to find out if the DD3250 can add to the NVH noise.

 

[BigPapa]

Call Peter at SBC and ask him. He knows his product and won't steer you wrong.

Your problem is one many folks don't think about when bit by the HP bug. More power means you need more clutch. More clutch means you lose drivability, as you've discovered. I'm sure Peter has a solution that will make you happy again.

 

[Blademan]

Thanks for the replies. I hear what you are saying BigPapa. One thing I always think about though is how in the heck Dodge and everyone else can keep upping the horsepower and torque to the current levels and have a stock clutch work just fine, plus have a warranty? I know that the automatics are used now for the higher powered trucks instead of the manual transmission trucks, but my truck isn't making more power than some of those manual transmission trucks. If they can build a stock truck with similar power to mine that has a nice easy to use clutch that works, I would think it shouldn't be that big of a deal to find one that will work in my truck.

 

[Blademan]

RVTRKN, thanks for the thoughts on the noise. I've also read that a dual disk will shift a bit slower. Do you still have your 07 that you list in your sig line with the DDS 3250? If so, how did you like it? How many miles do you think you have on that clutch, and was it smooth as far as engagement for starting out or backing trailers?

 

[RVTRKN]

Its so so, it can be a bit graby at the same time its smooth as silk. Backing up my 5ver in my sig is a bit challenging, in the drive way thats a 3% grade, but if I'm in 4 low its smooth. I've put 36K miles on it and it has worked as advertised, would I go to a single disk? Absolutely, if I could. With that said, I do love the holding power, and it hasn't sliped, even with my EFILive turned up to "5". But I dont push the truck, nor do I try to break the top fuel dragster record with it.

 

[RVTRKN]

Call Peter at SBC and ask him. He knows his product and won't steer you wrong.

Your problem is one many folks don't think about when bit by the HP bug. More power means you need more clutch. More clutch means you lose drivability, as you've discovered. I'm sure Peter has a solution that will make you happy again.

Peter has lots of options for your HP your running and BigPapa is correct about Peter, he never tries to sell you something you don't need. He has been known to be very generous at times if you encounter trouble with your SBC clutch.

 

[Blademan]

Understood. Thank you for the info RVTRKN.

 

[NIsaacs]

Thanks for the replies. I hear what you are saying BigPapa. One thing I always think about though is how in the heck Dodge and everyone else can keep upping the horsepower and torque to the current levels and have a stock clutch work just fine, plus have a warranty? I know that the automatics are used now for the higher powered trucks instead of the manual transmission trucks, but my truck isn't making more power than some of those manual transmission trucks. If they can build a stock truck with similar power to mine that has a nice easy to use clutch that works, I would think it shouldn't be that big of a deal to find one that will work in my truck.

I am running an Edge Juice/RV injectors, on level 5, it has 400hp/900tq on a chassis dyno. I tow heavy and use this clutch, basically a stage two organic with 90k miles on it, never slips. It does have more transmission noise than the oem.

Second picture is oem.

Here is a link to a similar clutch, stage 2, they go to stage 4 all single disc and organic.

http://www.phoenixfriction.com/p-23384.aspx

Nick

 

[Blademan]

Thanks Nick. Is that clutch smooth starting out or backing your trailers? Also, do you think my truck is in the similar power range with number 2 fuel? My clutch started to slip this winter on number 1 fuel and I can notice a big power loss in the winter.

 

[NIsaacs]

Thanks Nick. Is that clutch smooth starting out or backing your trailers? Also, do you think my truck is in the similar power range with number 2 fuel? My clutch started to slip this winter on number 1 fuel and I can notice a big power loss in the winter.

It was smooth for about 50k, however, now it is grabby when hot, still smooth when cold. I think part of the issue is my 3.55 gears and I think I should have used a new flywheel v/s just resurfacing the old one. It had a lot of bad spots on it. After the fact, I was advised by a clutch expert that the hot spots are like cancer and will come back right away, I am sure he was right.

As far as power I would say you are about the same as I am. What gears do you have? I see a big difference in power/mileage from summer fuel to winter, also.

I helped install an OKHD in an '09 Dodge and a 7.3 Ford, both had a lot of power, they did not hold. We ended up with a street twin disk in them both, no problems now.

Nick

 

[Blademan]

I have 3.54 gears in my truck. Thanks for the information Nick. I appreciate it. I guess at this point I plan to pull the clutch and make sure that there isn't some other mechanical reason the clutch is starting to let go. Once we get a good look at what happened, I think I'll be in a better position to make a judgment call on where to go from here.

 

[BigPapa]

Still haven't called Peter?

 

[Blademan]

I haven't called Peter yet, but I plan to call this week. I want to take the owner of the shop that installed this clutch for a ride with me first to show him exactly what is happening. I am privately concerned that the install might not have been done correctly, and if that's the case the owner of the shop will have a chance to make a decision on how we should proceed too. He buys a lot of stuff from Peter, so I don't want to take a chance of interfering in their business relationship in a negative manner if I can help it somehow. So there is some politics involved that I'm trying to navigate as best I can at the moment. It will be an interesting week that's for sure!

 

[NIsaacs]

I haven't called Peter yet, but I plan to call this week. I want to take the owner of the shop that installed this clutch for a ride with me first to show him exactly what is happening. I am privately concerned that the install might not have been done correctly, and if that's the case the owner of the shop will have a chance to make a decision on how we should proceed too. He buys a lot of stuff from Peter, so I don't want to take a chance of interfering in their business relationship in a negative manner if I can help it somehow. So there is some politics involved that I'm trying to navigate as best I can at the moment. It will be an interesting week that's for sure!

I like your plan, good job!

If your clutch is like the two we did over you won't find anything wrong, they just can't hold a lot of power. To look at them they seem awesome, with the wide lining on the disk they should last a long time and no doubt will with mild power. My guess is there is actually too much disk lining for the clamp force of the pressure plate, so has less clamp per square inch than the narrow disk like I have.

Here is a picture of them both, note the difference in lining width.

Nick

 

[Tuesdak]

I have the 1947-OKHD on a HO engine, but, I have no more than a cam for power improvements. The clutch is rated at 425 hp, 900 torque. Smarty set at #9 adds 170HP and would be 305+170= 475 HP taking me 50HP over what the clutch can hold. (Your numbers are different no doubt.) Never-mind the TQ rating. I think you would be in the clutches rating starting at 245HP?

The 1947-OKHD uses a heavier pressure plate to hold the same torque as a narrower friction lining. It's a heavy clutch pedal in town for sure. You can't beat how smooth it is. I have 12,000 LBS in tow without issue.

Check that the bell housing dowel pins are in on both sides as misalignment will ruin and slip the clutch. I suggest hitting the dyno and double check the power you are making.


Any hot spots on brake rotors or flywheels are where iron has changed into something else, cementite, due to overheating the cast iron. You can see and sometimes hang a fingernail on the hot spots by a visual inspection. It expands the casting in the hot spots and will bounce cutting tools off of it. Frankly you can't turn it out so replace the rotors/flywheel or you get to do the job over when it starts to pulse, grab, slip, etc. The expanded cementite hot spots will be the only area holding on a flywheel and that's not enough surface area to prevent slipping. To prevent cementite from forming in the brake rotors one should creep on the brakes after a hard panic stop so the hot rotor isn't held under the hot pads literally performing a heat treatment of that area of the rotor while the rest of the rotor cools. Hopefully this helps you troubleshoot the clutch. Again as mentioned calling Peter to get to the bottom of things is a no harm no foul action as they want to take care of you - Rare nowadays.

 

[Blademan]

I thought I'd give an update on my situation. I ended up going with the South Bend street dual-disk clutch. However, when the truck was in the shop we found out that I have a cracked piston. I think I have around 223,000 miles on the truck. Sigh... The initial plan is to pull the engine and bore it 10 over, and rebuild it. Anything I should do during this process that would be smart right now? New oil pump, etc...? Anyone ever install ceramic coated pistons to help with higher EGT's? Or is that a myth? I'm also thinking about upgrading the intercooler, all of my hoses, and maybe the exhaust manifold.

 

[Tuesdak]

I wouldn't trust a used oil pump on a rebuild and neither do most shops. (Esp after the shop eats a engine rebuild plus turbo from a bad oil pump.) After all it's eaten 223K of unfiltered oil. May be fine, but, it's a long ways to get to it if your oil pressure is low after a rebuild. I suggest sending the turbo out for a rebuild as well. Coating pistons... Why not just get some forged steel pistons like the "MAHLE Motorsports 9299693 Extreme Duty Monotherm Pistons"? - Err they don't make these for your year.

 

[Blademan]

Thanks for the info JDoremire. Those forged steel pistons look pretty cool though. Maybe the shop can double check with them and see what's available for my engine.

 

[BDaugherty]

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
Anything outside of a stock replacement will be more grabby.
I had a 2001 HO 6spd with bigger injectors and a fuel box with a South Bend Con OFE. It worked as advertised, but you had to be sure it was fully engaged before hammering down.
My current truck is a 03 HO 6spd with bigger injectors and a tst box running a South Bend street dual disc...I've had it for so long I can't remember the exact model#... It does rattle some and makes getting it into gear and shifting a little harder, but it does not slip. It's still tough to feather it, but for what it's purpose is, the tradeoffs are minimized.
A 2-low kit would be the best investment the OP could make.