Considering 2020 3500 Dully over my F350

[Wiredawg]

Hmm, I wonder if C&Cs are different for regen programming, as other components, tune, and configurations are different than P/Us?

We may never know.

Ron

 

[AH64ID]

Hmm, I wonder if C&Cs are different for regen programming, as other components, tune, and configurations are different than P/Us?

We may never know.

Ron

There will be minor differences, but I understand the 13+ motors are pretty similar unlike the 07.5-12 motors.

Keep an eye on your CTS2 and note the engine hours at your next regen, then you can predict the next regen.

Try putting it in park during a regen and see if it stops.

 

[Wiredawg]

John

The 13 to 18 MY C&C motors are actually more different than the PUs, different cams, injection pump timing, and I'm pretty sure emissions have different programming too. the 07.5 to 12 C&Cs were much closer and all the performance tuners, like my MADS tuner was plain old 6.7 tuner on my 09 4500. Most 6.7 Cummins tuners are listed to not work on 2013+ C&Cs.

My truck regens in park, likely because it is programmed to operate powered accessories. I've been told the clean idle sticker posted on my 17 5500 and previous 09 4500 dont mean anything, so dont really get why they bother if they dont mean anything.

I guess we can go back and forth with this, never owned a RAM HD P/U with a 6.7L, so I cant speak to them, but owning a 3rd and 4th Gen C&C has given me an actual on the seat perspective. Both trucks great, but the engine and transmission programming much better on my 17.

I appreciate you understand the operating characteristics of the PUs, but not so sure about the differences with the C&Cs.

BTW, even less Cummins Motor info out there on the 2019+ C&C trucks, but on appearance, looks to me like Ram and Cummins may have rethought having different mechanicals on the CCs than on the PUs. Hard to confirm and we'd likely have to do part number lookup on cams, injection pumps etc on two trucks, like we did on mine.

So, interesting to see operating differences on the PUs from my C&C. I wasn't aware PUs wouldn't regen in park.

Mr Brockman may be able to confirm my observations, as not too many of us underpowered/oversprung owners out here.

Thanks for the PU info, though.

Ron

 

[AH64ID]

Yes the motor has some different internal, I was referring more to the emissions being more similar than they were.

Programming options are likely more due to lack of clientele than anything else. The ROI just isn’t there.

I understood that part of the reason that the regen button was offered on CC trucks was because they do not do normal active regens at idle and it was causing issues. The button only works at idle.

 

[Wiredawg]

Do any of you ever get an EVIC notice of anything regarding Regen? Neither my 2009 nor my 2017 have ever provided a Regen related messag? When idling in park, the RPM increases a little over 1,000 and lasts several minutes. If it weren't for the RPM change and the CST2 monitor, I wouldn't know it was in regen. Just curious. Ron

 

[AH64ID]

Do any of you ever get an EVIC notice of anything regarding Regen? Neither my 2009 nor my 2017 have ever provided a Regen related messag? When idling in park, the RPM increases a little over 1,000 and lasts several minutes. If it weren't for the RPM change and the CST2 monitor, I wouldn't know it was in regen. Just curious. Ron

Under normal regen the dash wont say anything on pre-19 trucks.

I've only seen the Park and rpm increase regen after repeated short driving where a normal moving regen cannot occur.. but not bad enough for a notification on the EVIC. This was on my dad's truck.


EDIT: When you stated just over 1000 rpms it reminded me about something I had read. It took me a while, but I found it. This is describing a non-standard active regen, and what I was experiencing on my dads truck... the rpm difference threw me off at first.

If the engine is allowed to idle or the truck is driven on low engine speed drive cycles for more than 2 hours, the system will automatically enter an emissions operating mode that will increase the engine idle speed to 900 RPM (1050 RPM for Chassis Cab). While in this mode, which is designed to help maintain the diesel particulate filter, the engine idle speed will return to normal when the brake pedal is applied. A small change in engine tone or a slight change in engine performance while accelerating may also be noticeable at speeds below 20 mph (32 kmh). This operating mode may last for up to an hour of idle time, or around 20 minutes of driving time.


Does that indicate what you are seeing @Wiredawg ?

 

[Wiredawg]

Yes Sir! EggsActly right. I noticed this most transporting generators, when the only time I shut truck off was refueling. And the green regen light on the CST2.

Ron

 

[AH64ID]

Yes Sir! EggsActly right. I noticed this most transporting generators, when the only time I shut truck off was refueling. And the green regen light on the CST2.

Ron

Makes a lot more sense!

I'm quite certain your truck is also doing the standard 24 hour minimum regens, as your duty cycle likely allows you to not need regens any more frequently unless idling as mentioned.

Looking back to 2007 the 6.7 was released without this idle software. It was stranding farmers, hunters, and others who needed to idle or couldn't get up to speed for a regen. In all honestly it was the main reason I didn't buy an 08 when I picked up my 05 used. The 08 was the a Big Horn vs XLT and otherwise the same, only 1K more new than a used 05 but I wasn't about to get stranded in the back country. Shortly thereafter Dodge came out with TSB 10-013-08 that added Net Zero and Net Reduction idle modes to the 07.5-08 6.7's, and all trucks came programmed that way afterwards. Those titles aren't mentioned much anymore, but if you're at 1050 rpms with the CTS2 green light you're in Net Reduction mode. It's active regen, but SLOW and not the same as a stationary regen (AlfaOBD, Dealer, C&C regen button).

 

[TFucili]

Do any of you ever get an EVIC notice of anything regarding Regen? Neither my 2009 nor my 2017 have ever provided a Regen related messag? When idling in park, the RPM increases a little over 1,000 and lasts several minutes. If it weren't for the RPM change and the CST2 monitor, I wouldn't know it was in regen. Just curious. Ron

Yes, on the '19+ one of the gauge screens on the EVIC is the DPF status. Normally it indicated percentage restriction. During a regen it indicates it is in progress.(Not my truck, just a google search photo).

 

[Wiredawg]

Asian transmission fluid.... I'm sure it's abundant in Thailand.

Makes a lot more sense!

I'm quite certain your truck is also doing the standard 24 hour minimum regens, as your duty cycle likely allows you to not need regens any more frequently unless idling as mentioned.

Looking back to 2007 the 6.7 was released without this idle software. It was stranding farmers, hunters, and others who needed to idle or couldn't get up to speed for a regen. In all honestly it was the main reason I didn't buy an 08 when I picked up my 05 used. The 08 was the a Big Horn vs XLT and otherwise the same, only 1K more new than a used 05 but I wasn't about to get stranded in the back country. Shortly thereafter Dodge came out with TSB 10-013-08 that added Net Zero and Net Reduction idle modes to the 07.5-08 6.7's, and all trucks came programmed that way afterwards. Those titles aren't mentioned much anymore, but if you're at 1050 rpms with the CTS2 green light you're in Net Reduction mode. It's active regen, but SLOW and not the same as a stationary regen (AlfaOBD, Dealer, C&C regen button).

That makes sense... my 2009 would increase RPMs and perform Regens also as you mention. This process is called intervention regeneration.

One thing for me is figuring out when and how long the 24hr Regen is. If the 24hr regen is due and I'm idling, will it run, delay or cancel? And if the DPF is relatively clean, do you think it will evaluate or initiate Regen? Then either cancel or briefly perform Regen?

I know we're getting into minutia, but that's what we do... So, I'm thinking because I'm seeing EGTs in the 900s downstream, I'm likely seeing sustained 1200 EGTs.

I'm not hauling generators or have any long RV trips planned, so it's harder to focus and track this. My CST2 monitor is mounted on the A-pillar and easy to see. Its possible a 24hr Regen is performed, but too short duration to capture.

So, I may be able to modify my statement about my 17 Ram 5500s duty cycle results in shorter duration and fewer (in between 24hr Regen). Most use their trucks like cars, commuting, daily driver, etc... and likely tend to load up their DPFs.

Anyhoo, good discussion and learning.

Christmas Cheers, Ron

 

[TFucili]

My truck will do the Hobbs Regen with zero restriction indicated. I avoid short trips like the plague, and mix in a quick highway loop on US60 regularly, and my gauge is on zero pretty much always. I have never formally timed it, but when it goes into Regen I would guess it's at least 20 minutes.

 

[TFucili]

I should add that I can almost always tell when it kicks off a regen around town by the sound of the engine, but if at highway speed, not so much. It does cause the MPG to drop off noticeably, though, so that is a clue while under way.

 

[Wiredawg]

Tom,

Good info... I'm still thinking my 24hr Regens may have occurred in traffic or at idle... I'm seeing the green Regen on my monitor, just not running loaded that I recall. That's why I'm curious if the 24hr one runs anyway if idling, either in traffic or park, and if not, does it defer until conditions permit to operate, runs at next avail opportunity, or cancel and the timer restarts? Just more curious about the 24hr automatic Regen operating rules.

I'm almost certain my exhaust back pressure is behing the turbo and pretty sure its the differential pressure reading off of the two preasure sensors on the DPF. I need to investigate the CST2 Monitor exhaut pressure informtion souorce as informtion doen't have much valu if you don't know what it represents.

I guess all our discussion about Ram Regen helps OP as one of his main issues is he sees what he considers too frequesnt of regens on his Ferd.

Thanks for the input.

Christmas Cheers, Ron

 

[AH64ID]

The 24hr/Hobbs will only delay if you’re not in gear/moving, and then the delayed idle regen will occur. What I don’t know is if that will reset the clock or not, since you can stop it with the brake pedal. I’m going guess it will continue to try until a full regen is complete, and when it can’t you get the xx% full message. I’ve had them occur, on time, at very low speeds while hunting...less than 20mph. It doesn’t take much.

Even while towing heavy and EGT’s are over 900° in the DPF the 24hr/Hobbs regen will occur. It’s my favorite time for a regen because it needs the least amount of fuel.

The only time i have really seen fuel economy drop a definite amount during regen was a cold morning in the rain on really wet roads. I think the evaporative cooling on the DPF was pretty high so it needed more fuel to heat. Otherwise the mpg drop is small enough that it’s not a definitive amount.

 

[AH64ID]

As for the exhaust pressure what kind of values are you seeing?

Exhaust back pressure runs from 0-60 psi and DPF psi runs from 0-2 psi, generally under 1.0 and rarely over 1.4 on my truck.

I’m fairly certain you’ve just missed the active regen while driving. It’s quick, quiet, and easy to miss. As I mentioned my dad has never seen it, and I’ll bet he’s had 25 of them with his CTS2 installed. I keep EGT1 and EGT3 on my main screen and sometimes EGT3 being at 1000° catches my eye before the green light.

I wonder if the manual regen button can be added after the fact? Probably cheaper to just use AlfaOBD thou.

I’ll also add that I have seen one time where the 24 hour regen was reset without a regen and that was an ECM flash. I thought I missed a regen but it came on 8 hours later, and it took me a bit to remember the ECM flash which had been 24 hours prior.

 

[Wiredawg]

John,

Came up with another theory... my observed regens were the 24 hour ones... no good source info on it, but appears possible. Read posts on Cummins Forum that made me think about the timing of my observations more than load cycle.

BL: My observed regens on the CST2 could very well be the 24hr timer. I feeling did have a mix... had more than a few bad traffic jams that were likely Intervention Regens.

I really like these threads where we get to share info and learn about our trucks, particularly when it's on a subject that Ram provides little or no info on. Saw good info from a poster with an app that clearly showed regen on the 24hr mark. The how to still has question though, some reported part of the software actually artificially increased DPF load to 100%, then ran the regen.

I'm capturing bits and pieces though that leads me to believe there are differences between PU and C&C emissions... FOM: it takes 900 RPM PUs and 1050 RPM for C&Cs to maintain DPF, basically slow or stop DPF loading.

Anhoo, still looking for more shared info on this. Whisked I had this perspective while I was towing heavy generators in traffic and open highway.

Christmas Cheers, Ron

 

[Jim W]

Hey guy's this is from out in the far-left field so, take it for what it is worth!

Do any of you monitor fuel usage during regeneration such as average MPG usage on the display? When my truck would regen and this occurred when towing my 5er about every 250 miles. The average MPG would drop to under 9 MPGS and the EGT's would rise to 1,200 to 1,450F. After regeneration process the fuel mileage would increase and the EGT's would return to normal around 800F. If I was not towing this would occur less often but I would observe the same decrease in fuel mileage and the increase in the EGT's.

I know this is a 2008 truck and Ram has changed the emission program on the newer trucks by going to the SCR emission design. But when the trucks due regen they still need fuel to burn in the DPF. So, I believe if you look at the MPG's on the display also you might see a decrease in fuel mileage along with a rise in EGT'S if you monitor them.

But this all changes sometime around mid-2009 on my truck.

 

[AH64ID]

John,

Came up with another theory... my observed regens were the 24 hour ones... no good source info on it, but appears possible. Read posts on Cummins Forum that made me think about the timing of my observations more than load cycle.

BL: My observed regens on the CST2 could very well be the 24hr timer. I feeling did have a mix... had more than a few bad traffic jams that were likely Intervention Regens.

I really like these threads where we get to share info and learn about our trucks, particularly when it's on a subject that Ram provides little or no info on. Saw good info from a poster with an app that clearly showed regen on the 24hr mark. The how to still has question though, some reported part of the software actually artificially increased DPF load to 100%, then ran the regen.

I'm capturing bits and pieces though that leads me to believe there are differences between PU and C&C emissions... FOM: it takes 900 RPM PUs and 1050 RPM for C&Cs to maintain DPF, basically slow or stop DPF loading.

Anhoo, still looking for more shared info on this. Whisked I had this perspective while I was towing heavy generators in traffic and open highway.

Christmas Cheers, Ron

Your standard 24 hour regen won't bump the rpms up, or opearate in park. That's why the C&C's have the option of a regen button on the dash, initiate a stationary regen when they will be parked and idling all day for work. A stationary regen is still more complete than a 1050 rpm regen, IMO.

Yes, very little info the systems.

Edge states that the DPF load data isn't accurate and that's why DPF load isn't available on the CTS2. It would make sense that at 24 hours the DPF is simulated full to trigger a regen, but I have no way to verify that.

Hey guy's this is from out in the far-left field so, take it for what it is worth!

Do any of you monitor fuel usage during regeneration such as average MPG usage on the display? When my truck would regen and this occurred when towing my 5er about every 250 miles. The average MPG would drop to under 9 MPGS and the EGT's would rise to 1,200 to 1,450F. After regeneration process the fuel mileage would increase and the EGT's would return to normal around 800F. If I was not towing this would occur less often but I would observe the same decrease in fuel mileage and the increase in the EGT's.

I know this is a 2008 truck and Ram has changed the emission program on the newer trucks by going to the SCR emission design. But when the trucks due regen they still need fuel to burn in the DPF. So, I believe if you look at the MPG's on the display also you might see a decrease in fuel mileage along with a rise in EGT'S if you monitor them.

But this all changes sometime around mid-2009 on my truck.

Yes the MPG's drop but nowhere near as drastically as the pre-SCR trucks. 1-2 mpg empty and less than 1 towing are what I have observed, aside from the 1 regen I mentioned in a cold rain storm with lots of standing water that caused evaporative cooling on the DPF which showed a 3-4 mpg drop empty at 65 mph. The drop is so minimal that it's not a definitive indicator of regen like it was on 07.5-12 PU's.

EGT's don't rise in the manifold on the SCR trucks as much either. The big rise in EGT's occurs in the DOC which is the 1st canister after the turbo. Cruising empty during a regen will have EGT1 at 600-700° normally (post turbo in the downpipe) but the EGT's in the DOC (EGT2) are pushing 1000-1050° which gets the DPF (EGT3) at 975-1025° for the regen.

 

[Wiredawg]

I think the lower your AVG MPG, the less regen impacts it. The highest my AVG MPG gets is 11.6 MPG, but mostly hovers in the low 9s MPG.

I keep fuel logs on my trucks:
2009 Ram 4500 4x4, 4.44s, Aisin 12.4Klbs, typical GCW 33.4KLbs: 9 years/68K miles lifetime MPG avg is 9.6MPG
2017 Ram 5500 4X4, Aisin, 12.2KLbs, typical GCW 33.6KLbs. 2 years/41K miles 9.6MPG

Both trucks towing speed 65MPH; Both used primarily to tow heavy RV.

I'm not disagreeing with you... just providing more info that IMHO higher duty cycle/lower AVG MPG trucks see less if any swing on the trucks lie-ometer.

I'm hoping Greg Brockman posts his regen experiences... Not trying to hijack the thread, just it's heavily slanted on regen topic.

GOOD INFO!

Christmas Cheers, Ron

 

[gsbrockman]

I'm hoping Greg Brockman posts his regen experiences... Not trying to hijack the thread, just it's heavily slanted on regen topic.

Unfortunately.....I have little to nothing to offer, except for I keep the DEF tank full, and let White Lightning do it’s thing. Since I run commercially, and my device for my ELD gathers some information from the OBD port, I can’t run a splitter and monitor anything with an EDGE unit.