Consumer Reports Slams Domestic Autos

[Mike Ellis]

I read through an issue of Consumer Reports (April 2003) and boy the American cars come off horrible in reliability etc compared to the Asian imports, even the Asian cars that are built in the USA.



15 years ago I'd read this stuff and say, "Yeah, but the Big 3 are catching up. " They've had plenty of time to catch up by now, not much rocket science involved.



Sometimes I wonder if there isn't some anti-American bias going on in the consumer press. Can our products really be so horrible compared to the foreigners? If they are, why haven't we changed to beat them at their own game? We obviously have the engineering skill and workforce, so why aren't we doing a better job overall?



CR reviews full-size trucks, the Toyota Tundra makes them swoon but the Big 3 get mighty sneers. Doh??



How long's it gonna take for us to catch up?

 

[LSMITH]

We will never catch up. Having worked with most of the auto makers I can tell you that without a doubt the philosophy of the car companies are totally opposite when comparing Japanese and Americans. The American worker (from top to bottom) has a "what is in it for me" attitude and the Japanese work to forward the company which in turn will benefit them. Worlds apart, and culture change is not going to happen.



We are making better cars than any other time in the last 10 years right now. The gap is still huge.....

 

[Jumbo Jet]

I would still buy an American car over a Japanese car.



I have a 1992 Olds 88 with 200,000 miles that has costed pennies to repair and a 1998 with 90,000 that hasn't had a single repair.



Both get 30-31 mpg and have a whole lot more comfort and safety for my $$.



... and I dare say they have more power than any Accord I have ever been in.

 

[d90boy]

Originally posted by LSMITH

Having worked with most of the auto makers I can tell you that without a doubt the philosophy of the car companies are totally opposite when comparing Japanese and Americans. The American worker (from top to bottom) has a "what is in it for me" attitude and the Japanese work to forward the company which in turn will benefit them. Worlds apart, and culture change is not going to happen.

I agree 100% with this assessment. In America individual achivement is reinforced while the Japanese work for the good of the group. The fact that japanese cars made in america are still superior takes a bit away from this argument, which points to the car design itself being the issue.

 

[QRTRHRS]

The big never cease to amaze me. I admit that I have had rice burners. Had good results overall too. However, they are just plain shy on leg room. Above that, I need a truck or a van, full size.



So, being captive, I buy American. Still, it really pushes my buttons to hear the same old lines. We did not find anything wrong. They all do that. Etc. Etc.



That said, consumer magazines are written for just that, consumers. The mall crowd, whatever. Certainly not real world, hard working, hard playing people. Take the tool reviews. Black & Decker, Ryobi, nothing serious. JMHO

 

[merryman]

I am not convinced that it is not largely political correctness.



Consumer Reports= political correctness

Political correctness= American bashing



I got sucked into the superior foreign car bit when I was in my "Yuppy" years and bought a new Mercedes Benz. It was a great car to drive, but wow! did it require the repairs; just one thing after another needed fixing----and they were Expensive!

I grew tired of that and traded it in on a new Volvo; that thing lived at the dealer and just came home for visits now and then so something else could break!!

Tried a couple others and then came back to U. S. made and my repair troubles ended.

Two T-Birds went combined well over 240K miles and only very minor things required attention. Not a singel significant repair. Fewer repairs total for the two of them than any single six month period for either of the "superior" foreign jobs.



In all the US made vehicles I have owned (bought my first car in 1950), I have made fewer major repairs in total than on just those two foreign cars. I will stay with my U. S. vehicles and ignor the politically correct American Made bashing.

Only one American made vehicle I have owned had significant problems--my '84 Ford F-250, and there the major problems were with the Canadian made engine.



Vaughn

 

[athompson]

If Consumer Reports says it...

I don't believe it. They claim to be unbiased, but they still need to sell magazines. Guess what sells magazines.



From personal experience, the best vehicles I have bought new were American. The Asian ones were the worst. They were the only ones I've ever had to take to the dealer under warranty. One even bit me with a $1000 repair bill just 2 months out of warranty.

 

[illflem]

the score

All bought new in the last 10 ten years-

two Toyota PUs (one US made), one Accord, one Lexis and one Camry (US made) all with no recalls.

Two Dodge pickups (German owned company, Mexican built) one with 10 recalls the other with 12...

 

[Mike Ellis]

The same issue of CR slammed the European makers pretty hard too, even the BMWs and Mercedes got a black eye for reliability and in some cases depreciation - so it doesn't seem to be purely anti-American bias. Volkswagen was ranked at the very bottom in reliability right alongside Cadillac.

 

[Steve M]

The only car I ever lemon lawed was a Toyota. I'll never own another. The most trouble free truck I ever owned was an Isuzu P'up Diesel 5spd/4. 10. I abused and overloaded it quite often for over 200,000 miles. My Mopars from my '75 B300 Maxivan to my 4 Dodge Cummins trucks have all been within a couple of small items away from being just as reliable. According to the statistics, a Tundra is expected to have 1. 3 problems while a Dodge pickup is expected to have 1. 7 problems within the first three years. Not nearly enough to justify spending $31,000+ for a half ton smaller truck with an aluminum V-8 that couldn't even begin to pull our 5th wheel. It's all hype and vogue and I don't care to participate.

 

[jzaremski]

anecdotes aside, I have to agree with CR. Just look at build quality. Look at the interior of an F-150 or a Dakota, and look at all of the trim panels that don't line up properly. Look at all the cheap plastics and fabrics. Look at all the flimsy attachments.



Now look at a Toyota or Nissan pickup. Interior trim lines up, the materials are better.



Why is this? Is it assembly? Nah, the line workers can only put together what they're given. Is it design? Partially. The problem with U. S. carmakers is that they are driven solely by cost. Beholden to the stockholders, they are taking the myopic stance of maximizing profit NOW. Beating suppliers up over $0. 50 on a door panel, removing accessories to save $2. 00 a vehicle. It's ludicrous. If it can be done cheaper, they will do it, as long as the trade-off in quality is "acceptable". And it's only going to get worse.



In contrast, the Japanese manufacturers typically won't sacrifice quality in the name of cost.



Frankly, the domestic manufacturers have to start thinking long-term. Sure, they may take a hit now, but if they start making better cars, more people will buy them, hence profitability returns.

 

[pdolan]

During my years in the motor trade, I have been a dealer for European cars, US cars and trucks, British and Japanese motorcycles (at different times). I came into the business as a mechanic, so I have seen it from many sides.



IMHO, US cars are USUALLY about as reliable as refrigerators, and about as exciting. We have different values from other cultures as to what a vehicle should be, and, for the most part, US manufacturers provide a lot less engineering and assembly quality than Europeans and Asians for many of the reasons others have stated, but the end result is still that the US vehicle meets the demands of an ever-decreasing portion of the US public. The low periods of time for the domestic industry co-incide with the fall of engineering types from power and the rise of bean counters to the top of the corporate ladders. The UAW has hardly helped the matter. Those of you familiar with the Lordstown Vegas will know what I mean.



Euro - particuarly German - cars have a lot of progressive thought in the engineering side, and they drive and are built like that. Unfortunately, to a typical German buyer, it is this engineering and the pride attached that are the reason to buy the car. You are not supposed to be upset that all of this technology comes with an obligation to fix the screw-ups, to which no-one will EVER admit. Further, they charge at least double to the US market for both cars and parts since they have managed to build a marketing image over here that sucks in the consumer to several of the same ideas. Their quality is consistant, which means a good model or feature is usually good, but a bad one pretty much means they will sell the same mistakes for years on end.



Japanese stuff I have less experience around, but their motorcycles are SO MUCH better than anything else, they litterally killed the UK industry. Their cars share some of this goodness, but that seems to be a more recent development. Personally, I do not like many of them - even though a Toyota may be reliable it just won't float my boat. That aside, the Germans invented and first produced the rotary engine (with all kinds of reliability and durability problems), the US companies couldn't even begin to manage the technical aspects and risk of bringing it to production (several tried) but Mazda made it into a truly viable alternate. My summary is that Japanese mainstream sucks, but the odd individual who dares to swi amgainst the current (Sochiro Honda & the rotary guy at Toyo Kogyo) can draw upon their collective coroporate culture and do some good things. A lot of their early quirkiness was due to the average Japanese auto exec not being able to understand US culture, and a lot of the later success has come by letting those design decisions be made here in NA.



Best truck I have ever owned - 1990 IHC DT466

Worst truck I have ever owned - 2000 Ford F450, 7. 3 PSD

Best car I have ever owned - 2003 WV Jetta TDI Variant

Best Sport Ute I have ever owned - 1988 S-15 (Yup!)

Current bikes - Yam & Honda, next will be Austrian (KTM).



Moral of this rather long post, each has some good and some bad, it depends on what is important to you and how lucky you are on ducking the lemons (the ALL make them) and finding a good dealer (90% of the battle).

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Consumer Report's negativity toward American cars goes back a long ways. The library at the college I went to had all the issues of CR all the way back to 1942



Even back in the late '40s and '50s CR had a lot of negative to say about American cars construction, reliability and quality.



Another thing I noticed is in some of their vehicle tests they option the vehicle out inappropriately when making comparisons. One that really caught my attention back in the '80s. . . get this. . . a 4x4 Chevy S-10 quadcab longbed pickup, ordered with the 4-cylinder Automatic!! Yes they commented about its "weak performance and passing ability. " Morons.



Vaughn

 

[jmtandem]

consumer reports

Mike,



Your kidding? CR compares a Toyota pickup against a Dodge, Ford or Chevy. It's like comparing a childs little wooden hammer with a hydraulic ram. The trucks are not in the same league as to what can be done with them. If your biggest decision about the truck is what kind of air freshner to use, get the Toyota; if you want to haul trailers, campers or boats get the American made truck. CR does every reader a disservice by not camparing similar items. Toyotas are great for what they are and can do; too bad CR does not evaluate what they can and cannot do. The big three might have trim pieces on not quite straight, but at least the trucks can haul more than a few sheets of plywood, or a dirt bike. I basically quit reading CR in the 1970's. I don't agree with how they test products and some of the conclusions that they come to.



Now my story. I bought a 1995 Ford Escort new with the 1. 9 L Mazda engine for my wife and at the time also purchased an extended warranty. For 40,000 miles the car ran perfect except for the ridiculous seat belt retractors along the top edge of the door. At about 50,000 miles the timing belt slipped or broke 10,000 miles before it was to be replaced under routine maintenace. My cost after a AAA tow truck ride, $350 not under warranty. Than at 60,000 miles the head gasket leaked, intake gasket and exhaust gaskets leaked, water pump, thermo, and oil pan gasket, $1150 at Ford, also not under their iron clad extended warranty. At 75,000 miles the engine swallows a valve, metal parts in the engine, engine is trash. Repair bill at Ford after another tow truck ride, $4300 for a new engine and labor. Yup, also not under warranty. And this was a Mazda engine! I told the Ford dealer that I would come get my stuff out of the car and they could keep it. A car worth $4000 running is not worth putting $4300 into it. I shopped more for the warranty than the car for my wife's replacement and she now drives a '03 Jetta.

 

[illflem]

Good bashing of CR here- http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

 

[jzaremski]

I bought a 1995 Ford Escort new with the 1. 9 L Mazda engine for my wife and at the time also purchased an extended warranty. For 40,000 miles the car ran perfect except for the ridiculous seat belt retractors along the top edge of the door. At about 50,000 miles the timing belt slipped or broke 10,000 miles before it was to be replaced under routine maintenace. My cost after a AAA tow truck ride, $350 not under warranty. Than at 60,000 miles the head gasket leaked, intake gasket and exhaust gaskets leaked, water pump, thermo, and oil pan gasket, $1150 at Ford, also not under their iron clad extended warranty. At 75,000 miles the engine swallows a valve, metal parts in the engine, engine is trash. Repair bill at Ford after another tow truck ride, $4300 for a new engine and labor. Yup, also not under warranty. And this was a Mazda engine!

sorry, but the 1. 9 liter was a Ford engine. The 1. 8 DOHC in the GT was the Mazda.

The big three might have trim pieces on not quite straight, but at least the trucks can haul more than a few sheets of plywood, or a dirt bike.

That's why the Nissan Titan has them very worried.

 

[LSMITH]

pdolan has it right. Good post!

 

[RustyJC]

Ditto on LSMITH's comment re pdolan's post - spot on!



The first car that I owned myself was a 1956 Ford, so I've been at this awhile. The horrible quality and extensive problems I had with Fords in the 70's and 80's finally drove me to purchase Volvos. I've had 2 - a 1983 245 Turbo and a 1993 850 GLT. Both were much better than the Fords I've owned, although they were expensive to service and repair if something did go wrong.



For the last 5 years, I've tried various Honda products. I had a 1999 Honda Civic Si that was a barrel of fun - 8000 RPM redline and bulletproof - never back to the dealer for any defects or repairs. I let my wife trade it in on her 2000 Durango SLT+, and I started driving the Volvo 850 GLT she had been driving.



In 2002, I traded the Volvo for a 2003 Acura 3. 2TL Type S (made at the Honda plant in Marysville, OH). Like the Civic, this car has never been back to the dealer for any defects or repairs. Insofar as performance and value is concerned, compare the performance and price of this car to the Mercury Marauder that I briefly considered. No contest.



We recently stopped by the Acura dealer where my wife (a confirmed SUV nut) test drove an Acura MDX. She couldn't believe the difference between the Acura and her Durango. Although she isn't in the market to trade this 5 minutes, I would be willing to bet that she won't be a repeat Durango buyer.



Sometimes you need a scalpel, and sometimes you need a stone ax. The Dodge/Cummins is the tool we need to tow our 13,500 lb 5th wheel, but technologically, it is a stone ax (although a lovable one! ) To its credit, it has never been back to the dealer for a defect or repair, either.



Rusty

 

[jmtandem]

oops, and thanks

Jzaremsiki,



I stand corrected, thanks. Everywhere else under the hood are Mazda references and I thought the engine was from them, also.





Not everything sold by Toyota and other Japanese manufacturers is imported to the US. Toyota has for years sold in other countries diesel Landcruisers that would have been nice here, too. The shorter jeep like Landcruiser imported in the 60's and 70's was quite a stout rig even if it only had a six cylinder. My father in law drove a couple of them; one went 300,000 miles, not all miles were on the original engine.

 

[mcoleman]

I've always purchased American vehicles and always will. I usually buy SSEI Bonnevilles and now have a Supercharged Buick Regal. I also had a 96 Impala SS before the Regal and now the x wife drives that and I've had zero problems out of them and usually trade whenever I hit 150,000 miles. A buddy I work with buys Honda's and will usually have the car in the shop for something before he can get 30,000 miles on it. Even my Bonnevilles were quicker than his Honda's. The Buick runs high 13s in the 1/4 with minor changes and delivers 28 mpg on the highway with plenty of legroom and heated leather and has hit 30+ mpg on extended trips. The imports have all been small cramped generic vehicles that fit the mini-van crowd well but do nothing for the people that like cars and performance. I prefer my cars to have above normal power and to not blend in with the soccer mom crowd. But to each his own. if it wasn't for the kids and their ricer crap I wouldn't have anyone to pick on at the local track with the 4 door old mans car.