Consumer Reports Slams Domestic Autos

[Steve M]

Hohn,

As much as I agree with you in most of what you say, I believe your opinion of union workers is a tad biased. If lettuce pickers formed a union, the price of lettuce would rise? Not if the price of a product is based on the highest price a consumer is willing to pay according to you and I agree with that. If the price for labor is so high that the business can't sell the product for a decent profit then both labor and the business go belly up unless someone is willing to accept less. The same can be said for the price of a product. It can be artificially inflated at the demands of the shareholders. If the product isn't selling at the inflated price, the e-board can fudge the numbers to keep the stock prices up until the business emplodes. Union members are no more greedy than anyone else in the economy. It's all business. We all want the most for the least.

I'm fully aware of some unions efforts to defend and keep worthless employees on the payroll. I don't agree with this at all. Unions should demand nothing but the best from their members. Unions aren't obsolete by any means. But some have lost sight of what they're in existance for. Harley Davidson is an example of how a company/ union relationship should be.

 

[Hohn]

Steve, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I am probably giving the unions an unfair shake. As I said before, I am all for showing loyalty to your employees and giving them all you can. The problem is that some employees won't reward you with good performance. I am not familiar with H-Ds labor relations, but I suspect that their corporate climate is such that most people would work there for just enough to get by, such is their love for the product and their jobs.



We ALL have seen people, union or not, who have a "job" but don't do anything. They get away with it for whatever reason- they know the boss, everyone just looks the other way, etc. .



True, lettuce prices WOULD rise if the cost of picking it went up. I doubt that if lettuce went up $0. 50 a head, then everyone would not use it. Fact is, if you want lettuce, you have to pay to get whatever lettuce costs-- no substitute. Tahoes have substitutes, lettuce does not, to a point. This is the key difference. That's why a vehicle producer and a lettuce producer have different factors that determine selling price within the range of what people will pay.



Price also can FORCE people to substitute things that normally would not be considered substitutes. For example, a regular substitute for a Tahoe might be a Yukon or a Sequioa or an X5. But if they ALL went up, then you get back to just basic tranportation, and a Yugo will substitute for a Ferrari.



What would happen if the price of the following went up by 400%?

1) lettuce

2) Tahoe

3) gas and diesel fuel



Lettuce-- we would probably use a lot less of it -- like mix in more cucumbers in a salad, for example. Or just not use lettuce at all. We don't NEED lettuce, per se. And there are few substitutes for lettuce that aren't actually lettuce. Spinach might be a substitute. Price here won't hurt you much because you have other options.



With the Tahoe, things are a little different. We can substitute something VERY similar, if not identical. So we can go buy a Yukon if the Tahoe is so expensive (remember, this is lala land where they aren't priced the same). Moreover, there are other SUVs that are still SUVs-- it's not like we are substituting spinach or cucumbers for lettuce. Price here again won't hurt you much because you still have other options.



With gas and diesel fuel, you are stuck. Yes, you can moan and complain, travel less, and do what you can to minimize cost or try to get the price down. But the fact remains that if you want to go somewhere, you have to buy fuel--- period. You can't dump alcohol in and hope it works. Price here will hurt you badly-- you have no other choices.



Pricing is a very complex issue determined by a host of market forces. It is simply supply and demand, but what goes into that supply and demand is FAR from being simple.



HOHN

 

[jmtandem]

CR vs. Union labor

Hohn,



I was not reprimanding you at all. Don't take it that way! You are more than entitled to your thoughts on labor issues and labor economics. I am not union but do think employees should make a fair wage, have benefits, etc. so I am not against unions. Apparently CR's evaluations lead to the conclusion that by bashing American made pickups union employees in America can't make cars as good as employees in foreign companies. How many of us really can tell if the plane we are riding in is being flown better or worse when flown by union or non union pilots? It is just not an issue. Same argument with CR, they evaluate the vehicle without regard to who made it or how much the labor costs for the car were. CR says American pick ups are not as good as foreign ones, I say they are comparing apples and oranges. I am against foreign labor making stuff cheaper in direct competition with American made products made in our country. I know that $1. 50 an hour is a lot of money for some employees in other world countries and it helps their lifestyle but that does not make it right to compete with our labor by selling products here that were made with very cheap labor.



None of this has anything to do with the CR bashing American made products and that is all I was saying. As far as your comment that personal experiences with cars is , like labor, really not an issue with CR, I agree. But the thread was bashing American projects and personal experience with American and foreign products at least lets us discuss whether we agree with CR. Since most of us have a Dodge CTD, we are at least familar with Dodge (Mercedes) products and if they were so bad we probably would not be chatting on this web site.



Another area that CR is not doing justice to comparative evaluations is the longevity of vehicles, depreciation, resale potential and anticipated repairs when out of warranty. Diesels tend to last longer than gas engines and that should be factored into CR evaluations along with the longer engine warranties that are not extra costs. Gas engines typically don't

come with factory warranties out to 100,000 miles. To fairly compare the diesel engine costs against the gas engine the warranty costs to get a gas warranty out to 100,000 miles should be factored into the difference of price between the diesel and gas. So should the better resale of diesels. How much does a gas engine pickup bring with 150,000 miles on it? I debated this issue at length some time ago on IRV2 when several folks thought gas engines were more economical than diesels for RV applications because they cost less to purchase. My argument was they are not really saving $4000 over the life of the truck (the difference between the gas and diesel engines).



Hohn, I suppose you can try to poke at my logic, but it is all too evident what foreign labor did to the American bicycle industry (Schwinn) over the last forty years, same thing for motorcycles as virtually all motorcycles are foreign (even Harley who prides themselves on being American made have lots of foreign parts) and virtually went out of existence, Boeing and McDonnel Douglas vs. Airbus subsidized by their governments, the Super Sonic Transport (Concorde) that was subsidized by their governments so the US manufactureres didn't compete in the early 1970's, and the list goes on and on. Now Nissan is making the Titan, a full size pickup with a V-8 engine. But hey, lets keep believing CR is right because foreign pickups have better lined cup holders and soon Ford, GM and Dodge will vacate the pick up market.

 

[Hohn]

My apologies, JM. I should have read more carefully to better perceive your intentions. Dang that ego!!

It's hard to discuss this because there are so many things at work here: trade policy, union vs. non-union, etc.

This all has forced me to re-think a lot of my conceptions about unions. True, mostly they are invisible- flight attendants and pilots come to mind. I think I am more opposed to the idea of the union as opposed to the practice of one. It seems to me that the purpose of a union is to get through extortion or threat what the workforce cannot get with performance.

Then there's the other side. If you are performing as well as a worker can possibly perform, who's to force that employer to reward you? If another employer isn't chomping at the bit to take you away, what recourse do you have? There are probably many employers who will reward high performance with a whip crack and a scream of "Get back to work!". Your higher performance just means more money for them, and the employees get nothing. Thus, the union becomes a necessary evil.

I suppose one way around this is to link the fate of the company leadership to that of the guys at the bottom. This shows just how criminal the Enron thing is: the guys at the top are cashing in millions while the folks at the bottom are destroyed. If their fates had been linked, either both would have prospered, or they all would have gone down together (like the Billy Joel song).

*end union spiel*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As someone else said, maybe CR should stick to evaluating blenders? For the most part, I enjoy CR and their tests. It's great for stuff like car wax, Electronics repair histories, etc. If I want to know which window cleaner also did the best on grease, CR is where I go.

But every time I see them test a car or ESPECIALLY a truck (maybe even worse for an SUV), I can't help but and want to vomit. They seem to be the biggest bunch of:{ :{ I have ever seen. What good is it to have an extra inch of headroom if the driveline is shoddy? (Especially if you don't need that extra inch of headroom).

CR perhaps misses the mark less with certain kinds of cars. When they rated the BMW 5 series the best car they have ever tested, I was kind of surprised-- first that they would even test something so expensive, and they they would give credit to anything not Honda or Toyota. I have driven a new 5 series, and I have to tell you, it's hard to disagree with CR. The car truly does seem to do it all- luxury, sport, good ride, great steering, etc. .

But with trucks, CR misses the mark. The problem is, they test cars and trucks the same ways! Truck buyers are different, and expect different things. We KNOW that our truck will ride rougher- we make that tradeoff to get the utility of being able to carry heavy loads. We don't need Barcaloungers to sit in- as long as it doesn't make us ache after a long haul. We KNOW that we won't get great mileage.



I would almost like to see CR test diesel pickups just to see if they would be as bad as I suspect. I would like for them to prove me wrong.



I think that the competition from the foreign makers is going to be very good for us, and good for American business. It's GOOD that Nissan is making a fullsize truck. Ford won't exactly lose sleep as they sell a million F-series a year. Think back to what the American auto industry was like before the Japanese invasion. The imports forced American car companies to get off their butts and get moving.



Foreign labor is not necessarily a bad thing. It is true that American labor is some of the most expensive out there. This is completely fine-- AS LONG AS YOU GET SOMETHING IN RETURN. In other words, it's ok to pay Americans a lot more if you get a product that's a lot better in the end. But is a Schwinn really all that much better? Or are almost all bikes "good enough"? Same thing with motorcycles. Harley has been able to stay alive and prosper as much (if not more) because of the mystique of the brand name as because of their quality. American makers tend to focus on their strengths in cruiser styling. I think that a lot of people would pay a premium for a Buell if it was faster or somehow better than a Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, or Kawasaki. But in GP and many race classes, Buell is not the leader. However, Buell cannot expect to compete with them if a Buell is more expensive and/or lesser quality and such. Don't get me wrong, I like Buell. I am just saying that IF they didn't deliver the goods, they wouldn't be making it.



Buying American is nice, but few people are willing to pay more for the same product, or pay the same for a lower quality product just to do so. If we want long term prosperity, we have to be able to compete on our own merit. So what if American products cost more, as long as they are better?? People will pay for quality- that's why Snap-on and such are alive and well.



HOHN

 

[jmtandem]

you raise interesting issues

Hohn,



You raise interesting issues. I agree, the Enron thing is very bad, Snap On tools are very good and BMW cars (and especially the motorcycles) are very good. Americans, mostly, are looking for cheap and low cost in everything they do. The airline example is a great illustration. The planes are the same, fuel is the same, speeds the same, crusing altitudes the same but the labor between union airlines and non union airlines helps the low cost carriers be able to provide cheap service. What passengers really care? The service is basically the same; the price is different. Who do they fly with? Usually the least costly carrier. Unions came about for several reasons and maybe it is time to revisit some of those reasons to see if they still apply. But, that said, I still maintain (I am not union) that employees deserve a fair wage for the type of job, education and skills required. Cars made in foreign countires are by Ford, Chrysler and GM often avail themselves of both lower wages and better environmental laws. Is it getting too costly to do business in America and if so, what needs to be changed? It is more than just labor issues. Twenty five percent of the previously bustling Silicon Valley south of San Francisco is vacant. Businesses are beginning to perform work that had previously been completed in the area to offshore companies. If this is really good for America then we need to redefine the term 'good'.

 

[Hohn]

Wise words. Gov't regulation has a LOT to do with driving the cost of doing business here WAY up. Some of it is stuff that companies used to get away with but now don't (pollution). Some of it is just ridiculous gov't bureacracy.



In the end, all these regulations make it harder and harder for someone to start a new business, which reduces competition and favors those already established. Consumers and entrepeneurs lose, fatcats win.



HOHN

 

[jzaremski]

passed to me via e-mail. More truth to this than you'd think.



How a Toyota employee bakes a potato:



* Preheat new, high-quality oven to 350 F

* Insert Idaho potato

* Go do something productive for 45 minutes

* Check for doneness, then remove perfectly baked potato from oven and serve



How a Ford employee bakes a potato:



* Instruct an Idaho potato supplier to preheat the oven to 350 F

* Demand that the supplier show you how he turned the dial to reach 350 F, and have him come up with documentation from the oven manufacturer proving that it was calibrated properly

* Review documentation, then have supplier check the temperature using a sophisticated temperature probe

* Direct supplier to insert potato and set timer for 45 minutes

* Have supplier open oven to prove potato has been installed correctly, and request a free study proving that 45 minutes is the ideal time to bake a potato of this size

* Check potato for doneness after 10 minutes

* Check potato for doneness after 11 minutes

* Check potato for doneness after 12 minutes

* Become impatient with supplier (why is this simple potato taking so long to bake?). Demand status reports every five minutes.

* Check potato for doneness after 15 minutes...

* After 35 minutes, conclude that potato is nearing completion. Congratulate supplier, then update your boss on all the great work you've done, despite having to work with such an uncooperative supplier

* Remove potato from oven after 40 minutes of baking, as a cost save without loss of function or quality versus the original 45 minute baking time.

* Serve potato

* Wonder aloud what on earth those Japanese folks are doing over there to make such good, low-cost baked potatoes that people seem to like better than Ford potatoes

 

[Hohn]

That is RICH! I have to say that is one of the funniest things I have ever seen!



Hohn

 

[Texas Diesel]

That was cute and probably very close to the way it is 'done'.



I wonder why both my Toyota potatoes were rotten? (page 3)



It must be the "halo effect".

 

[illflem]

You forgot the part where the Ford employee searched for two weeks beforehand to find the cheapest potato.

 

[Hohn]

Yeah, part of the reason for the better Toyota potato is that they bought American Idaho Russet potatoes. Ford would find some random potato from Indonesia which costs less, but actually ends up costing more once you ship it here and have to go through 4 of them just to get a remotely acceptable potato.



HOHN