Driver lost control down mountain

[CUMMINZ]

I think there was no original question but a wager. . :-laf

 

[SRath]

Sorry Cumminz, I got mixed up on the thread since this one turned into a continuation of my thread looking for opinions on pickup campers, which quickly became: "Why a dually is God's Gift". But I'll stand by the post.

 

[SRath]

The best rule of thumb for descending mountains in a big rig, and to cautious extent, ANY vehicle, is to use the SAME GEAR to go down that you needed to go UP.

This why I much prefer a manual transmission. You get better engine braking, though an auto has some, too. A jake brake is invaluable. But never shift a manual transmission on a steep downhill!! It can be extremely difficult to get it back into ANY gear.

Unlike the mountains out East, where the roads are often old and never really built for large vehicles, so they seem as steep as they really are; the big wide mountain roads out West can be very deceptive. Size is very relative thing out West.

It is FAR too easy to miscalculate the grade your are on and your speed while you are so busy steering curves and looking at scenery. By the time you do look down and see you are rolling at 80mph when you brain has been thinking "50 mph", you are in serious trouble.

As your speed increases even slightly, the braking force required to slow or stop it increases exponentially, not linearly. While you are doing that, your brakes super-heat and fade and quickly fail completely.

Unlike air or hydraulic brakes, you have less control over how hard electric brakes apply themselves on your trailer. God help you if you have surge brakes... especially if you hit any snow, ice, or wet spots on a steep downhill.

At night, and especially in fog, it is even very easy to confuse the human brain into literally not knowing which way is "up". You may think you are climbing when you are actually descending, and vice versa. This can even happen in clear broad daylight after many miles of rollcoaster mountain driving. Vertigo is common.

Lets not forget what altitude alone does to people's bodies and brains who are unaccustomed to it. You will have less oxygen to all parts of your body, especially the brain. This will be felt at first as a headache, but can lead to more serious problems in judgement and motor skills. You will tire more easily and quickly.

You paid big money to go enjoy the sights. Take your time and go slow so you can... and so you can live to tell about it.

 

[Grizzly]

What convinced you, is there an article somewhere telling us what happened?

Experience!

 

[Matt400]

Experience!

This incident could have more to do with money than duals. Perhaps the owner was hard pressed in this economy to keep food on the table and being both rigs well insured are now totaled, he gets a check handed to him for the replacement cost.



Kinda odd he was alone and bailed out. Not pointing fingers but with people lighting their cars on fire to get the insurance money it could have been the case here. I wouldn't point the finger at singles without all the information.

 

[HBarlow]

Scott,

I'm disappointed in you.

You couldn't win the argument that towing a large fifth wheel trailer or hauling a heavy camper on a grossly overloaded SRW truck is as safe as on a dually pickup so you turned the argument into a snide and sarcastic criticism of those who own and pull large comfortable fifth wheels and those who do not earn a living driving a truck. I'm surprised at how bitter you appear to be in this thread.

I don't remember anyone criticizing the driving skills of an OTR driver in this thread or claiming that drivers who earn their living driving big trucks aren't more experienced and usually more skilled.

I'm only an amateur driver but I spent just under three years and 400,000 miles on the highways pulling travel trailers for hire recently with a DUALLY pickup. I pulled them in all weather including I-94, I-90, I-80, and I-70 in winter on snow and ice. I remember a few days when the big trucks driven by commercial drivers were sliding into the ditches and median right and left on I-80 in WY while I, just an amateur, or pretender if you prefer, slowed down and kept my little rig in the roadway. I even pulled a few of the treacherous mountain passes out west, without chains, in my little dually that professional drivers apparently know can't be driven on snow or ice.

I suppose many "professional drivers" resented me in my little dually pickup on some of those days when I motored on down the road past them as they sat, jacknifed in a snowbank or ditch.

I'm surprised that you, a CDL driver with millions of miles of driving under your belt would knowingly haul a 5,000 lb. or heavier slide-in camper on a 2500 series truck with single tires and claim it's safe.

Each to his own, I guess. I will not tow or haul a heavy RV of any kind on a SRW truck. Maybe it's because I want the additional capability of a dually to compensate for my lack of driving skill.

 

[dougp6]

srw vs drw

i bit the bullet and traded in my paid for 02 swr for an 07 drw acouple years ago. it was no fun starting over on pymts but my 33' alpha trailer over loaded my swr. i fell for the "any one of my diesels will pull your trailer. " that was before i found tdr. if you are over loaded, the insurance MAY not pay out for you. you may lose every thing and be stuck on your own with out any help from your insurance co. i also added an exhaust brake ooh boy what a difference

 

[Matt400]

Odd how this thread turned into a dually war. Its obvious a dually adds stability over a SRW but was it the cause in this case?

I see no slides in the pics, I have a Kingston and looking at current floor plans and assuming there is a slide in the left rear on this RV that would put it at 7100 lbs dry and under 12K gross with a pin weight of under 1600 lbs.



Even if its a larger one, the fact of no or just one slide makes it less heavy than current designs. Would be neat if we could find out what "really" happened.

 

[HBarlow]

I have no idea what caused the accident. This discussion is technical as far as I'm concerned.

I know very little about Crossroads trailer models other than the fact that I've delivered a few from the factory in Topeka, IN but that is not a 7,000 lb. trailer in the photos. It appears to be at least 32' and probably is 34' long. I think I see eight lugs on the visible wheel. That would normally indicate a GVWR of around 14,000#.

Loaded weight of an actual fifth wheel trailer, not theoretical weight on the manufacturer's brochures, with propane, fluids, and owner possessions can usually be estimated at rated GVWR, rarely much less. No trailer ever leaves the factory floor weighing what the brochures claim they weigh.

Kingpin weight would be at least 20% of GVWR, perhaps as much as 25%. A good estimate of kingpin weight of the wrecked trailer would be more like 3,000 lbs.

A fifth wheel trailer rated at 12,000 lbs. is unlikely to have a kingpin weight of "under 1600 lbs" except, possibly, on the factory brochure. In the real world kingpin weight is going to be 20% or more.

My own HH fifth wheel which is labeled 32LK is actually 33' 9" long and has a GVWR of 14,100 lbs. It weighs that much on every trip. Kingpin weight is 3500# or more which is 25% of GVWR, more typical of most. My trailer has an Onan generator set in the basement compartment.

I was talking with a local friend at lunch last week who was proudly telling me about his new 39' fifth wheel and GM tow vehicle he had just bought. The trailer has a GVWR of 16,500 lbs.

He bought a 2500 series truck because he didn't want to drive a dually around town. I kept my opinions to myself to avoid crashing his pride in his new rig but I did gently and politely suggest he weigh each axle on a public scale once he has it loaded for travel. He said the dealer who sold it to him suggested he keep his truck tires inflated to 85 psi (on LRE tires rated @ 80psi). He'll probably be 2,000 lbs. overweight on the rear axle!

Each to his own! I'm not a DOT enforcement officer.

 

[CUMMINZ]

My wife and I just finished 2 trips too and from Myrtle Beach, SC. We graciously towed our DayDreamer to the beach for my daughter and family and in-laws for a weeks vacation. We went back to pick it up this past Friday. I hate the beach so I only enjoyed the trips because I love to hear my CumminZ moan. Going into Myrtle both times there was a stream of Rvs for hours on end. I literally mean we saw a thousand RVs enroute. Now like Mr. Barlow stated "To each his own". There were a lot of duallys, BUT by far there were many, many, many, many,many (get the point) SRW trucks pulling RVs. Most were squatted Way down in the back but the ones that my wife and I really staired at were the SRW rigs with tri-axle toy haulers. I pray for them all.

 

[Matt400]

I have no idea what caused the accident. This discussion is technical as far as I'm concerned.

I re read the OP and didn't catch that at all.

A good estimate of kingpin weight of the wrecked trailer would be more like 3,000 lbs.

Maybe but I have a 3 slide Crossroads that is no where near that. Factory spec is 1900 and I know what you are saying about factory specs being off.

In fact I added air bags in the beginning when I fist bought it only to find them over kill and pulled them back off. If it was 3000 on the pin it would be squashing my little 2500 for sure.

 

[HBarlow]

I think you'll find an actual scale weight to determine kingpin weight much more useful than wishful thinking. You may be pulling a trailer that overloads your rear tires by 1,000 lbs. or more.

 

[SRath]

Harvey, I do not own, nor have I ever put, a 5 thousand pound camper on my truck. I have recently hauled several 5,000 pound loads of gravel for my driveway and dirt for my landscaping, though. And it barely sagged the rear springs and drove and handled just fine. But as you dually guys quickly pointed out, it had a much lower center of gravity.

The "tone you are surprised at" is exactly the snide tone you dually guys use on any SRW guy; and that was my point. I'm glad you didn't miss it.

I'm also glad you are better at truck driving than many truck drivers. Good for you. So am I. Especially with the losers they recruit nowadays. All the new regulations and computerized records and requirements have made many excellent drivers say "To hell with it. " and quit. It isn't what it used to be. I figure we are just a couple years from where they will surgically implant a USB port in my *** and run me entirely by friggin computer! The truck itself is just one huge computer full of unreliable crap. I used to love being a trucker; now it sucks.

At the same time, the small companies and independents can't survive due to insurance and fuel costs, leaving HUGE companies running the show. They cannot find enough drivers with what their insurance companies call "acceptable driving records". A fender-bender in your own personal car is enough to disqualify you in some cases.

So where do they find drivers to work for 18 cents per mile that have a "clean" driving record? Two places: The inner city where many young adults have never had a driver's license! Put them through a two-week school (for which they owe the company $5,000 to be deducted from their 18 cents per mile AND at least one year of servitude. PLUS they get money from the government for "job training" of minorities. They may have a criminal record as long as your arm, but they have NO driving record, good or bad, and only the bad would count anyway. So load 'er up nice and heavy with HazMat, slam the door, and tell 'em "Drive fast!" Yessiree-Bob/Shaquille/Tyrone/Muhammed, You are now a qualified trucker!!

The second place they find "clean driving records" is foreigners. Yup. There is an incredible number of Middle Easterners and mexicans who cannot even speak the language (or read road and warning signs) hauling up and down your highways right this moment. No record (or experience) at all counts as a "clean record".

Is it just possible that many of the "losers" (my term) that you passed and found in the ditch were those novices?

I'm tellin' ya folks, stay clear of Big Trucks these days. There are some INCREDIBLY incompetent drivers out there and more of them every day!!

But I'm not one of them and would be happy to convoy with you anywhere anytime, Harvey. The day any Texan outdrives me on snow and ice is the day I go to work as a door greeter at Walmart!!

 

[Bob Cochran]

I can't and won't dispute what you said. Obviously your a good driver as well no doubt. I drove for many years over-the-road but not near as many miles as you have. In my case decided driving was not my thing and decided to do other things.



I miss it though and on occasion I will go with my younger brother for a period of time. Who I believe can match you driving experience as there are many others. I am finding something really scary though. Younger drivers as some older ones as well are SCARY!!!!! They cannot even stay in there lanes on smooth roads, no wind. I have talked to them and they just don't care???



It is sad to say the day of the knights of the road and excellent professional drivers who take pride in their driving is ending. It is true of other professions as well so I am not just picking on drivers here. It used to be rare to find poor professional drivers but today it seems more often than not I am sad to say. The other day my brother was asleep when another driver backed into the front of his tractor. Really no need for it to happen there was apparently more than adequate room. Knocked brother out of the sleeper(shocked) pulled on his pants and managed to stop the guy as he was leaving!!!!! Even bare foot and shirtless he managed to get the guy stopped. If he had not the guy would have left. Never would have happened in the old days; not only would his tractor not been hit but if it had would have stopped and taken responsibility. SAD



I guess bottom line even good professional drivers can be just a patronizing and a pain in the ***** as the dually driver about single rear wheel pickups. They will tell you all cars and pickups, RV's, etc should be band from the highways and only commercial truckers allowed. Been there heard it and seen it and I bet you have as well.



Ok had my say all done.

This will sting a little at first, but here are some "hard truths" about your "big ol' duallies" you probably won't like: Starting with "they ain't so big" and including "they let anyone drive them". And, considering those reasons alone, if a mere dually is the best crutch available to make the highways a tiny bit safer, then I am all for them.



Just remember, I have no interest in owning a 5th wheel at all OR a pickup camper that is too big for my truck. (Dragging a 5th wheel on vacation would just be too much like what I do for a living to let me feel I was finally on my own time. Like a 'busman's holiday' where a bus driver spends his entire day off riding on a danged bus. )



Many of you recreational drivers haul your big rigs almost 5ooo miles per year. Some of you are retired and pull/haul your big "5ers" (cute term) or 5th wheels 10 thousand miles a year or more. Wow. The average professional truck driver does more than 10k per month; 12 months per year.



You tend to do the majority of your driving in good weather during the summer months and in daylight hours. Your experience with your 'big rig' on snow, ice, and high winds and heavy rain is as limited as possible thanks to your good sense to avoid those hazards. For that, I sincerely thank you, since as a professional driver, I MUST be out in all those conditions and dread every encounter with RVs then.



You haul a rig, that is approaching the same size as a semi, though MUCH lighter and vulernable to wind, and you aren't even required to have a CDL or even receive any special training or pass any kind of driving test AT ALL. Your equipment is not subject to strict DOT inspections on a regular basis. The chassis is built as lightweight and cheaply as possible; especially the running gear. Gotta save weight and money somewhere so the inside can have 3 cable TV's and hardwood flooring, ya know.



It has electric/hydraulic brakes of almost adequate size to stop a vehicle grossing nearly 20,000 pounds under ideal conditions. Sure, 20k pounds is only 1/4 of a modern 80,000 pound rig with air brakes and anti-locks, but lighter rigs are often harder to handle.



I never hear you guys mention how many sets of duals your trailer axles have, btw... ? Isn't that where much of the weight is. . ? Isn't that where most of the side-to-side leverage of a tall vehicle exerts it's force. . ? Hmmm... Now what is up with that? Are tandems a substitute for duals? How do they limit sway? Gee golly...



Furthermore, any high blood pressure, diabetes, bad vision, medications, etc do not automatically disqualify you from driving those huge rigs. Your hours are not strictly regulated and you can drive as long and far as you want without rest. You need every advantage you can buy, and a dually is one of them.



A dually pickup is almost 12 inches wider in footprint in the rear and on ONE axle only and has 4 additional sidewalls. Never mind your front footprint is actually NARROWER than a single rear wheel pickup and those wheels and tires, though not as load-bearing, do all your steering.



You probably never though about that, did you? On a semi, the front wheeltrack is as wide as the outside width of the tandem duals. Your's are not.



By now you recreational drivers with your 'big rig' duallies and '5ers' are bound to be resenting me very much for the superior air this is written with. In fact, I'm sure it sounds just like you guys when you jump on every opportunity to start criticizing any single rear wheel pickup owner who wants to buy a pickup camper to fit his truck and needs.



But if recommending a recreational driver buy a dually helps at all, I'm all for it. If all I used my truck for is what many of you guys use yours for, I would have dually, too. But it wouldn't make me super-bobby-big-rig.



I only put less than 5,000 recreational miles on my RV per year, too, anymore. I am buying a pickup camper to eliminate the need to pay for year-round insurance and licensing and maintenence on a dedicated RV vehicle. So my vehicle must perform many other day-to-day tasks. There will be some compromises, which is why I want an appropriately-sized pickup camper that does NOT need a dually.



And frankly, I am a professional driver with more miles of accident-free driving under my belt and in my logbook than anyone here, I'll wager (close to 3 MILLION miles in a semi alone and not counting a single personal-vehicle mile). I know my vehicles and what they can and cannot do. I also know my own limitations. Quite frankly, I'm a better driver. Truly BIG rigs and safe driving ARE my profession. Lectures from recreational weekend warriors are amusing at best and soon become irritating. Like Piper Cub weekend flyers lecturing a 747 pilot.



Hey guys, drive whatever makes you feel more confident and safe. Drive whatever makes the rest of us safer when you are on the road. God knows I see far too many motormansions and 5th wheels in the hands of idiots with more money than brains or experience. If that "great big dually with 2 extra tires and a few inches of rear-axle-only width" makes you safer to share the road with, Please, by all means, keep your dually!



Just remember: Not everyone seeking opinions on pickup campers is a novice to Big Rigs, RV's, pickups, or driving. Not every SRW pickup owner will put up with 'airs of superiority' from guys who own identical pickups with a tiny bit wider rear-axle-only footprint.

 

[SRath]

You make some very astute observations there, Bob Cochran, and I think we posted at the same time, so make sure to read the post right above your's... Nice job on mind reading!

 

[raksasa]

I guess I'm the only one on this thread that can't get past the "driver BAILED" part of the story. I want to know how that worked.

 

[Matt400]

I think you'll find an actual scale weight to determine kingpin weight much more useful than wishful thinking.

Who said anything about wishful thinking. The specs may not be exact but can easily be closer than your guesstimate of 1000 lbs overload on my rear tires. My two rear tires are rated for 7500 lbs.



I am sure someone here has weighed the back of their SRW QC, and if the manufactures 1900 lb pin weight is close that would mean empty my back half would have to weigh in at 6600 lbs to overload my rear tires by 1000 lbs.

Don't these trucks weigh 7K total?



But to get back on track. . does anyone know more about the incident the OP made??

 

[HBarlow]

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But I'm not one of them and would be happy to convoy with you anywhere anytime, Harvey. The day any Texan outdrives me on snow and ice is the day I go to work as a door greeter at Walmart!!

Scott,

Thanks, but I'll decline that challenge. I have no doubt that you are much more experienced and skilled on the road and particularly driving on snow and ice than I am. I was VERY aware through the three winters I spent hauling trailers that I was a guy from Texas with very little experience driving on snow and ice. I often joked about it reminding myself and admitting that limitation to other drivers I talked with. Remembering my limited experience each day I drove on snow and ice and being very careful may have saved me.

I did spend ten years living in CT as a submarine crewmember and a couple of years in WA state for a submarine overhaul so wasn't completely new to winter driving.

 

[HBarlow]

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Is it just possible that many of the "losers" (my term) that you passed and found in the ditch were those novices?

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It is certainly possible and even likely although I only remember seeing white faces on the roads out west when snow and ice was on the highways. I wonder if the trucking companies keep Juan, Jose, and Muhammed out of the upper midwest and northwest in winter or just on the snow and ice days.

The only driver I actually saw jackknifed was a white guy. It was a funny story.

I think it was in February 2007 when I was working for JET, Inc. the transport arm of Jayco. I was pulling a 35' conventional travel trailer west across I-80 in WY one extremely cold day with a very strong wind coming from a few degrees south of due west. The sky was clear and the highway had been cleared completely but heavy snow was on the ground and the wind was blowing the snow powder across the highway and it was freezing, building up a thin layer of black ice in patches several miles long. There were alternately stretches of smooth dry highway then suddenly, unexpected black ice patches. The trailer I was pulling was the worst possible for that day because the long flat sides acted like a sail and I was constantly fighting to keep it pointed straight ahead. I got the rig partially jackknifed several times but managed to correct it. I was maintaining a speed of about 55 when the road was dry and the westbound big trucks would blow past me. On one slight grade the trucks blew past me and about a mile up the road I topped the grade and found another patch of black ice. A big green Volvo and white trailer, Interstate IIRC, that had just passed me on the grade was sitting on the right shoulder close to the pavement with the trailer still pointed west but the tractor jackknifed pointing back at me (southeast). As I slowly drove by the driver and a woman were sitting stiffly, stunned and wide-eyed on the front seat frozen in place. The driver appeared to still have a white knuckle grip with both hands on the wheel. They had probably just stopped sliding seconds before I crested the hilll and observed them. I think only the cab fairings were damaged but he needed a towtruck to get back on the pavement and may have had to explain why a woman was in the cab with him. I saw dozens of trucks in snowbanks that day including two separate stacks of brand new tractors piggy-backed on each other. One set was upright, one set of four or five were on their sides. An easy 1/2 million dollars wrecked.

I have fond memories of my hauling experience and miss the road but not enough to go back to it. I figure I was lucky to avoid a crash on winter highways and on borrowed time.

 

[kenny61]

I guess I'm the only one on this thread that can't get past the "driver BAILED" part of the story. I want to know how that worked.

It's amazing what people are capable of, especially when it comes to fight or flight reflex. We had a garbage truck driver who lost control of the vehicle, For reasons I can't rember it was a break or steering failure he saw it was going to go over an embankment / bridge and bailed while he was doing a minimum of 45 mph was probably closer to 45 at any rate the truck went airborne clearing a vehicle in the northbound lane of the road below nosediving into the southbound lane did a few front to rear flips and burst into flames(spewing garbage everywhere. Results a few scratches and bruises to the driver no one else injured. More amazingly there were no cars in the southbound lane and at the time of day it happened the lane is not only busy but packed at a full stop. He has the flight reflex. Me I'm a fighter I would have been in mid air willing the truck to come to a safe landing cursing the hell out of it