Edge or Banks or????

[Gypsyman]

You'll see lot's of people stacking a pressure box with the TST in these forums. The TST on the higher settings really starts to stretch the duration out and the EGT's show it. Stacking a pressure box with it allows you to run lower settings while still getting the same or even more fuel into the cylinder. This gives you higher HP gains with shorter duration hence lower EGT's. Plus the two stacked together have a compound or cumulative affect. The VA on 100% is no longer just 40 HP on the top end. Due to the longer duration it's much higher (possibly in the 60 to 70 hp range). This particular stack also gives me over 270 possible fueling combinations. HP for any occasion and a beautiful towing stack that can run with the best of them when your playing hard.



Richard

 

[Matt400]

Stacking a pressure box with it allows you to run lower settings while still getting the same or even more fuel into the cylinder. This gives you higher HP gains with shorter duration hence lower EGT's.

Interesting Richard. . makes you wonder why the Attitude and TST didn't include pressure in the programs.

I kinda like the Attitude and thought if I did change I would give it a try but maybe stacking with my 3. 1 on lower settings would be an idea.



For comparison... Lets say a specific amount of fuel passes through the injector using a lower pressure but longer duration and that same amount is passed using a higher pressure but shorter duration.



What is the difference the cylinder sees in "fuel charge"? By that I mean how is one or the other any different given the same amount is passed?



Also in the "stacked" method you mention above, if you have the same or even more fuel charge- how would EGT's be any lower by getting it in there with pressure vs duration?

 

[Gypsyman]

For comparison... Lets say a specific amount of fuel passes through the injector using a lower pressure but longer duration and that same amount is passed using a higher pressure but shorter duration.



What is the difference the cylinder sees in "fuel charge"? By that I mean how is one or the other any different given the same amount is passed?

The charge delivered by higher pressure and shorter duration would have better atomization or a "cleaner" charge with smaller fuel droplet size. This would give you a more efficient burn (more of the fuel delivered is actually burned). Hence more power per lb of fuel delivered.

Also in the "stacked" method you mention above, if you have the same or even more fuel charge- how would EGT's be any lower by getting it in there with pressure vs duration?

The majority of the reduced EGT's is due the the shortening of the duration event. The charge has more time to burn before the piston enters the exhaust stroke and the exhaust valve opens. Also, an efficient charge will allow more of the fuel to be utilized during the power stroke and less residual fuel burning during the exhaust stroke.



This is all based on my understanding of the physics of the cycles and injection events. If I'm way off base I hope someone will step in here to correct me.



Richard

 

[Matt400]

That makes sense, I suppose where my mind wasn't digesting the event was thinking of a gas engine where the fuel is injected on the intake stroke. Here you have it injected much later under compression.



I still don't see why the box people wouldn't have stuck with a reasonable safe pressure increase as the starting point and then fine tune with timing and duration.

 

[Gypsyman]

In my opinion Mark at TST has a certain mind set when it comes to making power. He clearly states on his sight that his box doesn't raise rail pressure which he feels can cause damage or increased wear. Edge on the other hand would be costing themselves sales of the EZ. I think it all comes down to what's the most profitable to the particular manufacturer.

 

[Matt400]

I agree about excessive pressure but raising it some has worked well for many years now.

I have heard the VA-C3. 2 (duration box) has EGT issues same as what you mention above.

 

[OT-OF-HERE!!]

just my perspective here, but I think that if you are truly committed to a bone stock transmission, AND you want to push the limits of the transmission, take another look at Banks. The Banks system is very sophisticated, able to detect and defuel when drivetrain slip occurs. It will also soften the TCC lockup event itself. its a reasonable approach to the use of additional power when you are committed to the stock transmission AND committed to more than 70 horsepower or so.



But you might not want that much sophistication and electronics governing the performance of your truck. if you prefer the simple approach then stay at 70 horsepower or so with the 48RE if you are concerned about long term durabilty. Then when/if you are ready to put more power to the ground, do the upgrades and bombs away, including fuel delivery, transmission, and turbocharger.



btw, you can always use the Juice on lower power settings.

Doug,



The new Juice has the same safeguards as the Banks. You were referring to the defueling for the safe operation of the transmission,... Juice has it. Go it,... runs super sweet and smooth.

 

[Matt400]

What connections are made with the Juice?

 

[Matt400]

Try flippin' the VA on while your foots planted and the TST's on 5x5. You can DEFINATELY tell that the VA is adding fuel!

So Richard, did you have to do anything special to get the 2 boxes working together?



I was just reading this thread and see where two fellas mentioned there is no way those 2 boxes stack.

 

[Gypsyman]

If you read the thread closely what they are saying is not to stack two DURATION boxes together. Lloyd (lmills) is the only person that I've heard of that has had a problem stacking any pressure box with the TST. He and I even spoke about it and I have no clue as to why he had a problem. He may have had a bad C3. 1 but I have no way of confirming this. I've heard of a few early C3. 1's that had two wires crossed in the harness but that was when they first came out. As you can see in the thread the C3. 1 hooks to the same sensors as the EZ just at a different location. I've tried the EZ also. No codes and no problems. I just prefer the VA when it comes to pressure because it has a stronger low end for spool-up and is softer on the top where the TST gets hot. Plus they just flat out drive great together.



Richard

 

[OT-OF-HERE!!]

Juice connections

What connections are made with the Juice?

You have (3) injector connections, (1) data link connector, (1) Map connector, (1) connection for the EGT probe, (1) connection for the Attitude. I found as a Beta Tester with taking this on/off that if you put a real fine line of dielectric grease on all the connectors then it made taking it apart and putting it back together a snap, FYI. I've had 5 other boxes on my rig,... briefly, and the Juice is far and away the best for power and smooooooothness in delivering the power. If you get in trouble with it on ice or wet condiitions it's because you were looking for trouble. Again,. . smooth.

 

[DLeno]

Doug,



The new Juice has the same safeguards as the Banks. You were referring to the defueling for the safe operation of the transmission,... Juice has it. Go it,... runs super sweet and smooth.

Edge detects the onset of TCC slip and de-fuels like Banks does? thats cool. I'm refering to a routine that the Banks box learns what your drive ratio is and then is able to detect when the TCC it slipping. Does the Edge also soften the TCC lockup event itself like Banks? The Banks box has a separate connection to the TCC solenolid itself and controls it directly so that the TCC lock-up does not occur so hard. Maybe Edge did some magic on the CANbus in that department.

 

[OT-OF-HERE!!]

Juice vs Banks

Edge detects the onset of TCC slip and de-fuels like Banks does? thats cool. I'm refering to a routine that the Banks box learns what your drive ratio is and then is able to detect when the TCC it slipping. Does the Edge also soften the TCC lockup event itself like Banks? The Banks box has a separate connection to the TCC solenolid itself and controls it directly so that the TCC lock-up does not occur so hard. Maybe Edge did some magic on the CANbus in that department.

DLENO,



Your in a real gray area for me here,... but this is what I've seen and noticed. There is NO separate hookup for the Juice to the TC solenoid. If you say the only way to do it is through the CANbus, then I suppose that is how it's being done because it does offer that feature which can be turned on or off and it does hook to the CANbus. I would say that it is a soft hookup on the TC lock-up. Another thing worth noting is that the Juice only fuels to 25% of it's capability when it gets to 140* and then it fuels at a 100% at and above 180*. Don't think your gonna install this box and go and see what she'll do. Not right away, anyway. I noticed on the Attitude, which has the engine temp gauge, ... it took probably 10 to 15 minutes of startup idling for warming the engine this AM and then another probably 8 to 10 miles of driving before I hit 180*+!!! Patience and control are the buy-words here. I will say your not dissappointed once she meets the appropriate parameters.

 

[DLeno]

thats actually great news, on the coolant temp based control. I really like that! Really, how many of us with a lick of sense put the pedal to the floor on a cold engine. as for the other things, Banks may have greater control over the TCC lockup event itself since they connect directly to the solenoid. It will be interesting to see if the Edge box actually can sense drivetrain slip. but in order to do that it has to learn some things over time, which means even with a hot engine you're not going to get performance out of such a box until it has a chance to learn what the drivetrain ratios are. Thats what the Banks box does -- it won't enable itself until you drive a certain number of minutes over x mph (highway speed) after install. pretty sophisticated. And if you are switching boxes for comparison, well... .

 

[OT-OF-HERE!!]

Banks vs Edge

thats actually great news, on the coolant temp based control. I really like that! Really, how many of us with a lick of sense put the pedal to the floor on a cold engine. as for the other things, Banks may have greater control over the TCC lockup event itself since they connect directly to the solenoid. It will be interesting to see if the Edge box actually can sense drivetrain slip. but in order to do that it has to learn some things over time, which means even with a hot engine you're not going to get performance out of such a box until it has a chance to learn what the drivetrain ratios are. Thats what the Banks box does -- it won't enable itself until you drive a certain number of minutes over x mph (highway speed) after install. pretty sophisticated. And if you are switching boxes for comparison, well... .

You may well be right on track with your assessment above,... then again, what if... ... the Banks box is just rpm, vacuum and thermostatically controlled? Afterall, the Edge Juice based on the 180* operating temp to get to 100% fueling would have taken me probably 20 miles to reach the other morning. Perhaps that's all the Banks is doing rather than learning ratios. If that were the case it seems as if the Banks would be a one time deal for each truck and not a pattern,... and maybe that's the way it works. I don't know,... just speculating.

 

[TCDiesel]

BANKS Six Gun Tuner can Detect a Speed Bump. Now thats sophistication. After detection is made parameters have to be made before hp is added. It will Protect Long before stock program Dis-engages the event.

 

[jsimpson]

The Bully Dog Torque Dog installs in five minutes and has a dash mounted three position switch for stock, 50 hp and 90 hp gains. I'm replacing my Bully Dog with a Banks setup because the Bully Dog will slip my Torque Convertor clutch. I tried using the 50 hp position but I just couldn't help flipping it to the 90 hp position!