Exploring garage/shop options - pole barn or not for attached building?

[CWebster]

http://www.michianabuildingsupplies.com/index.htm?http://www.michianabuildingsupplies.com/1.htm



good site for budget numbers. If you fill out there quote page you get an email response very quickly, and it breaks it down to trim, windows, doors, etc.



Chris

 

[HoleshotHolset]

That site came up with $8500 in steel for a 40'x50'x12' building... lined inside and out.



Matt

 

[jtisdale]

Matt,

4' frostwall is pretty much "the norm" around here. My sitiuation has more to do with grade. In fact, its gonna take 142 cubic yards of clean sand to fill the middle. We pretty much are just gonna peel the sod off with the skidsteer and set the forms for the footings-which is 8"highx18"wide, then we pour an 8" wall on top but only 3'10" high. next, we are going to drop the floor 1 foot inside the wall. All this ****in around to keep the water out of the front door.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Whoa. Your situation is a LOT more difficult than mine. Then again, I'm just getting started. Which part of the attached diagram applies to your situation? I'm trying to figure out what you meant...



We'll be in the market for a skidsteer in about a year or so (I'm looking at Case models with a 4BT, of course. ) - maybe I ought to accelerate the skidsteer purchase to help prep the land for the garage/shop... hrmmm.



Thanks,



Matt

 

[jtisdale]

Matt, its more like the bottom fig. , but put the soil on the outside just above the top of the footing line, but the floor on the inside will be about where you have it. The area where the shop will be is about 40' away and 3' lower than the end of the driveway. Thats why I need to bring the grade up. We already have a 26'x34'x9' attached. So, this will be an unattached (heated off the outdoor wood stove) shop for the "projects" complete with 1/2bath, phone, tv and DSL. Too bad I wont be able to afford any projects after its built. :{

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Matt, its more like the bottom fig. , but put the soil on the outside just above the top of the footing line, but the floor on the inside will be about where you have it. ... We already have a 26'x34'x9' attached. So, this will be an unattached...complete with 1/2bath, phone, tv and DSL.

OK - gotcha. Except now my diagram isn't loading on the page.



What do you think of the 26x34x9 garage? Is it big enough for the daily drivers and so forth? I'd like to have the daily driver portion big enough to fit a QC/LB comfortably - I see one of those in our somewhat distant future - once the '94 rots to the ground I gotta replace it with something.



Your unattached shop sounds SWEET. We need a 'jealousy' icon... :-laf



Thanks,



Matt

 

[jtisdale]

If ya ever get down this way, I can show you both! A buddy of mine has a 32x40x12. I would say the 26x34 would be quite small for both a garage and a shop. In fact, since we built the house a year ago last Oct. , I havent parked my truck in the garage yet. Too much other stuff in the way.

Jim

 

[IanF]

What do you think of the 26x34x9 garage? Is it big enough for the daily drivers and so forth? I'd like to have the daily driver portion big enough to fit a QC/LB comfortably - I see one of those in our somewhat distant future - once the '94 rots to the ground I gotta replace it with something.

I'd say that would be tight if you're planning on parking a QC/LB in there and want to work on it. Add a project or two... some tools... yard equipment... and forget it...



My g/f has a decent size garage. About 29x30 with two R/U doors and one man door on the left front. In the right bay sits her Volvo, with the riding mower in front of it. Across the back is her Spitfire on dollies with a work bench and storage along the back wall. The left wall has a staircase to the attic, my tool boxes, an unused wood stove, some shelves and my table saw. The MINI (her DD) lives in the left bay. We're planning on a shed to get the yard crap out of the garage. I am also psychotic about keeping everything as clean and organized as possible. The cooking grill lives outside.



With the Spitfire outside, I could park my fullsize van inside, close the door and walk around it, but it was tight - maybe 4' from the grill to the bench. I have little hope for fitting my QC/LB in there, closing the door and being able to effectively work on it.



My own garage is a bit longer, but only one rather narrow bay. I could probably fit the Dodge inside with the mirrors folded in.

 

[Majjoe]

Very interesting discussion here. Let me give you another option. I built mine garage/shop from ICFs (Insulated Concrete Forms. There are several manufacturers of the ICFs. Check out this web site to see what I'm talking about -- http://www.arxx.com. The walls are 12 inches thick -- two inches of insulation on the inside and outside and 8 inches of concrete in the middle where you also have your rebar. These ICFs go on top of your slab which you can use for radiant heat.



I installed radiant heat in the following manner -- prepare your slap with six inches of gravel, put an 8 mil vapor barrior on top of that, followed by two inches of polyurethene insulation (if you don't put this insulation your heat will go down instead of up -- heat goes from warmer to colder, if the ground if colder than the floor above it your heat will go down. On top of this insulation put your wire mesh and attach your pex tubbing to the wire mesh -- now pour your concrete on top of all that and you've got one heck of a heat source. Your insulation must be under your entire slap including the perimeter or your radiant heat will escape there also.



This will cost you more than a pole barn or a steel building, but I guarantee you'll never regret it.

 

[Majjoe]

The web site for those ICFs is http://www.arxxbuild.com.

Take a look -- you might like it.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I'd say that would be tight if you're planning on parking a QC/LB in there and want to work on it. Add a project or two... some tools... yard equipment... and forget it...

Ian: I'm planning on a segmented/separated setup. The daily driver portion will be where we park the rigs we drive/use all the time and will house the lawn tractor, grill, etc... nothing else. This will also likely be the 'wash bay'. The other part of the shop will be the workshop and repair bay. In the event we buy a newer truck to haul stuff with, I want to be able to fit it in the daily driver portion without shoehorning it in there.

I built mine garage/shop from ICFs

Thanks for your input. I LOVE the idea of ICFs but I find it hard to justify the added cost of construction. If I did ICFs for the shop, it would be built stronger, straighter and more air-tight than the house. :-laf

What was your experience in terms of cost VS. traditional stick built?



I've also looked into SIPs (Structural Insulated Panels), but again - this is "new" technology and people seem to want to charge out the wahzoo for them... it's just OSB and foam!!!! Anyone have any experience with SIPs? I can see them being a lot cheaper than ICFs... but can't determine how much more they would be than traditional construction.



Thanks again, guys.



Matt

 

[Majjoe]

Matt:



You would be pleasantly surprised -- the cost of the ICFs, concrete, rebar, mesh wire, pex tubing, etc. was around

25K for a 30x60 space -- not significantly higher than a stix build structure. That is with me and my helpers doing all of the work except pouring the concrete.



I was going to use SIPs until I checked the cost of the ICFs. SIPs are way over priced.



You sure have a lot of input and advice from TDRer's. Good luck.

 

[RHoppe]

I just had a 36x48 Northland Building put up last year here in Minnesota, turned out awesome..... 2 overhead doors, one is a 16x10, and the other is 10x10. The posts are laminated, approximately 8' apart. Each post is 5' into the ground and sets on a 24" diameter, 18" thick poured footing. I poured a concrete floor 5" thick with a drain in the center, then poured 4' wide concrete all the way around the entire building, for easy access,... building stays nice and clean, and mowing is simple. (I'm in a wheelchair). I had them design the roof trusses heavier than code for our area, for heavy snow loads. Very happy with the whole project, got all the electric for welding, compressor, etc. It's not insulated, but this year I am plannining on putting in the radiant tube heat from above. I'm not finishing the inside as they wanted almost as much to finish inside as what it cost for the building. I'll ty to post some pics..... never done it before, so don't know if it will work.

 

[Sled Puller]

I helped put up a SIP, not impressed. Foam and OSB, blech.



I like the foam/filled with concrete ideas, several different versions.

 

[GWoody]

I just had a 36x48 Northland Building put up last year here in Minnesota, turned out awesome..... 2 overhead doors, one is a 16x10, and the other is 10x10. The posts are laminated, approximately 8' apart. Each post is 5' into the ground and sets on a 24" diameter, 18" thick poured footing. I poured a concrete floor 5" thick with a drain in the center, then poured 4' wide concrete all the way around the entire building, for easy access,... building stays nice and clean, and mowing is simple. (I'm in a wheelchair). I had them design the roof trusses heavier than code for our area, for heavy snow loads. Very happy with the whole project, got all the electric for welding, compressor, etc. It's not insulated, but this year I am plannining on putting in the radiant tube heat from above. I'm not finishing the inside as they wanted almost as much to finish inside as what it cost for the building. I'll ty to post some pics..... never done it before, so don't know if it will work.

If you don't mind telling, how much did that set you back?

 

[HoleshotHolset]

... the cost of the ICFs, concrete, rebar, mesh wire, pex tubing, etc. was around 25K for a 30x60 space... I was going to use SIPs until I checked the cost of the ICFs. SIPs are way over priced.

As I've found out, SIPs run around $6/ft²... ouch. There are two types of SIPs... one has EPS (Expanded PolyStyrene) and the other uses urethane foam... the latter is better in my opinion, but is also more $. SIP factories are still trying to figure out ways to make them cheaper, but it'll be a LONG while before they can approach stick building's cost effectiveness.



If $25k covered the ICFs, crete, rebar, mesh, pex and etc, how much did you spend on siding, roof, trusses, etc?



In the end, I may have to go with whichever methods the local builders know how to use - and around here you have two choices... stick and pole.

It's not insulated, but this year I am plannining on putting in the radiant tube heat from above. I'm not finishing the inside as they wanted almost as much to finish inside as what it cost for the building.

1st of all - VERY sweet looking setup! Your floor is already poured and you're going to run the tube from above?! How does that work? Do you have to chisel out little channels in the crete and then lay the PEX?



What kind of finish did they quote you for the inside? With the cost of steel out of control these days, I can see how lining the inside with steel could get VERY spendy in a hurry. I'll be putting up 5/8" sheetrock everywhere inside my building... unless I can be convinced otherwise.



For those of you experienced with traditional pole barns and galvanized steel siding - can you spray urethane insulation on the steel and expect it to stay there? I imagine hanging fiberglass batts would be a waste of time.



Two weeks from today, I'll be heading up north to see Scott's shop - so I'll be loaded with ideas after that.



Thanks again for your input, guys.



Cheers,



Matt

 

[RHoppe]

The whole setup with excavation, concrete, inside and out,electrical,and insulated doors was a little over 50K. I went crazy on electrical with 4 outlets on each post,20 amps each,5 - 230V outlets for welders/ plasma cutter to operate simultaneously, 16:dual 8' high output cold weather flourescent lights, Air compressor hard wired, 3- outdoor outlets, 2- big metal halide outdoor wall packs, floor drain to outside. The slab in front is 46'x42', with 4' wide sidewalks all around shop and connecting with driveway at house. I hope to put radiant heat in it this summer.

Excavating cost $$$$$$$$. I was already low, but had to take out black dirt till we hit gravel, then haul in clean fill and compact it in lifts where shed sits probably 4'-5' of fill !!!! I'm glad it's all done, and it did turn out nice !!

 

[RHoppe]

As I've found out, SIPs run around $6/ft²... ouch. There are two types of SIPs... one has EPS (Expanded PolyStyrene) and the other uses urethane foam... the latter is better in my opinion, but is also more $. SIP factories are still trying to figure out ways to make them cheaper, but it'll be a LONG while before they can approach stick building's cost effectiveness.



If $25k covered the ICFs, crete, rebar, mesh, pex and etc, how much did you spend on siding, roof, trusses, etc?



In the end, I may have to go with whichever methods the local builders know how to use - and around here you have two choices... stick and pole.







1st of all - VERY sweet looking setup! Your floor is already poured and you're going to run the tube from above?! How does that work? Do you have to chisel out little channels in the crete and then lay the PEX?



What kind of finish did they quote you for the inside? With the cost of steel out of control these days, I can see how lining the inside with steel could get VERY spendy in a hurry. I'll be putting up 5/8" sheetrock everywhere inside my building... unless I can be convinced otherwise.



For those of you experienced with traditional pole barns and galvanized steel siding - can you spray urethane insulation on the steel and expect it to stay there? I imagine hanging fiberglass batts would be a waste of time.



Two weeks from today, I'll be heading up north to see Scott's shop - so I'll be loaded with ideas after that.



Thanks again for your input, guys.



Cheers,



Matt

Hey Matt,



They wanted another $17,000 to finish the inside all in steel, with steel ceiling and insulated sidewalls... ceiling would be insulated also.



The radiant heat i didn't describe well... . appologies !!! It's a gas fired(propane), infra-red tube heater. Here's a link to the site for "RE-VERBER-RAY"

My heating guy says they work awesome , and are very efficient in uninsulated buildings, as the heat is radiant infra-red, and heats all objects, so the warth stays, and everything takes on the set temperature. Would be great for your insulated shop !!! Around $2500



www.reverberray.com/products/hl2.html



Randall

 

[RHoppe]

I guess it just what you like!

I like wood!



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my shop!

-robert

Robert, Nice shop!!!!



What is the height to your ceiling ?? I love the thought of having a lift, but I only have 12'feet from floor to ceiling... ... . would that be enough?? What brand of lift do you have??



Randall

 

[RHoppe]

Is that a Lincoln 255C I see sitting there ???



Randall