Exploring garage/shop options - pole barn or not for attached building?

[rbattelle]

concrete will almost always crack.

I hear this over and over again from every concrete man from here to China. And yet when I have the occasion to visit a factory or even a train shop I never see cracks in the concrete.



Ryan

 

[Kennywould]

I built a 40 x 60 x 14' pole building back in 2002:

Truss roof, shingled, steel siding

16 x 12 insulated door

6" fiberglass insulated walls

6" fiberglass in ceiling with 3/4 thermax over the bottom of the trusses

2 man doors, 1 at each end

6" floor thickness, sloped the first 20' from the door in, no floor drains as per building codes

125,000 BTU forced air gas furnace, keep it set at 55 deg

8' HO florescent lighting shop ceiling, 4' in the billiard room and office this room has its own heat and a/c takes up a 15 x 20 corner of the building

three double hung windows in that room and two fixed windows in the shop which are high for light and privacy

my original investment was about $55,000 which included the excavation, building, windows, floor slab, heating and electrical. I had the building erected, slab poured and basic electrical and heating work contracted, I did all of the interior work and electrical work and installed the thermax.



Ken

 

[Kennywould]

Just a few things,

A lot of the problem here is taxes on a garage vs a pole building. A garage is going to be higher in the tax bracket. I looked in to the heated floor systems and decided not to do one because of cost. I have a building that stays cool in the summer and low cost to heat in the winter months, I see average $50. 00 a month in the winter for gas, electric depending on how much time I spend on the lathe working and spraying finishes runs $75. 00 to a $100. 00 a month. I have a diesel powered welder so it is mostly lighting, air compressor, lathe, grinders, small electric tools and shooting pool if I have the heat or a/c running. I have the lighting set up into 4 banks in the shop area so all the lights aren't on if they aren't needed.



Ken

 

[rbattelle]

Hey Ken, got some pics of the inside of your shop? Sounds nice.

Ryan

 

[Kennywould]

Hey Ken, got some pics of the inside of your shop? Sounds nice.



Ryan

I think I have a few I will have to dig them up!

 

[WVanHemert]

I hear this over and over again from every concrete man from here to China. And yet when I have the occasion to visit a factory or even a train shop I never see cracks in the concrete.

Ryan

What I was trying to get at, I guess I wasn't clear enough is that the only way to stop cracking is site prep, properly packing the ground, making sure drainage exists, if the ground moves, the concrete will crack, preparing the ground so it doesn't move helps to stop cracking.

 

[Kennywould]

I agree with the base needing to be done correctly! The correct placement of expansion joints also has a lot to do with concrete floors cracking. Everything moves in buildings and at different rates. Skimping on the expansion joints causes a lot of floors to crack. Floor thickness is important but I think that 6" of concrete with a 10 ga 10x10 wire mesh reinforcement will handle anything you want to put on it. You can haunch the floor where you might need more thickness for concentrated loads like a lift or large jacks. I made one section 8" thicker where I work on engines and I may have a few sitting in one area at a time on stands. You don't need to overkill and waste money especially when most of us are on a budget for one project or another. The internet is a wealth of information on all this and you can always taik to someone who is or was in the business. I worked construction for 31 years and I still shake my head at some of the things I see people try to do and some of their ideas are good but their costuction practices are poor! Just my . 02!

 

[Kennywould]

Ryan



I found a few pics and threw them in my photo gallery I will look for some more.



Ken

 

[Champane Flight]

had good luck with..

Steel buildings / metal buildings, steel garage doors from SteelBuilding.com.



These guys are on time, on budget, very helpful, and price will not kill. You can design, color, price quote, and purchase online, pretty cool feature, you can actually look at your building with the colors you pick before you buy.



Heres some pics of mine.



#ad


#ad

 

[y-knot]

When I was doing our new shop, the concrete floor was one if not the most important single operation. If you want a floor that last and doesn't have 4 million cracks then it should be atop your list of most important things also. For a work shop 4" floors are just not thick enough, 6" should be the minimum and anywhere you know you will be doing heavy work, the floor should be thicker.

I took the time to lay everything out on our building, and I knew exactly where the lifts would be, welding table and area, storage racks for metal (which easily weight more then 15-20 tons!) , and made sure we reinforced these areas right. The 2-post lift area I made a 8 foot wide 12 foot long 16" trench to support the lift where it bolts to the floor. This gave the lift and me peace of mind and the confidence to work under my truck with no worries. Same goes for the area where I store steel, he have a back to back industrial style storage rack that is 12' high x 20' long x 6' wide. It stores mainly angle, round and square steel tubbing, and it adds up fast, right now we have about 15-20 tons on the rack. I have another rack with 10 tons of steel at another site. The main thing to take from this, is be prepared and do your home work, then there will be no surprises.

We had planed on a 6-7 " floor thru out the building, except in the before mentioned places. Due to a framing area, we ended up pouring the floors 4" thicker, which is fine and gave me more strength, but the 10-11" floors over all also cost another 4000-4500 more then the 6" floor.

 

[MLimpert]

Ok, I have a question for all of you building experts. I just bought my first house. It has a 2 car attached garage, which obviously won't hold all of my toys. I would like to build a 3. 5 car stick built garage behind the house. I would like insulation, 2 overhead doors, vinyl siding, concrete floor, and dimensional shingles. Could someone give me a rough idea of what this will cost to build? Unfortunately for me, wood construction is not something I am knowledgeable about, so I will have to have someone build it. Can anyone point me in the right direction so far as price or any other resources?



Thanks!

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

I just scored a set of trusses for free off a remodel job. So, I guess I'll be building the Kamiah shop from the TOP down Most likely a slab, post and beam, the freebie trusses on top, and metal siding and roof.

 

[Kennywould]

Ok, I have a question for all of you building experts. I just bought my first house. It has a 2 car attached garage, which obviously won't hold all of my toys. I would like to build a 3. 5 car stick built garage behind the house.

Thanks!

I would think your in the 28 to 35 dollars a sq ft range, if you had a 30X28 put up which would be the minimum I would go your looking at $24,000 to $30,000 range. I haven't priced anything for a few years now so I would check with some local contractors on sq ft prices. Most of them will tell you a good guesstamate.

 

[Kennywould]

I just scored a set of trusses for free off a remodel job. So, I guess I'll be building the Kamiah shop from the TOP down Most likely a slab, post and beam, the freebie trusses on top, and metal siding and roof.

Just my opionion but those metal roofs are really noisy when it rains, I prefer shingled myself.

 

[SMorneau]

I hear this over and over again from every concrete man from here to China. And yet when I have the occasion to visit a factory or even a train shop I never see cracks in the concrete.



Ryan

When you see saw cuts or troweled joints you are in fact looking at cracks. Surface cracking is a different matter. The fact is concrete changes size as it cures and it will crack, even if you don't see it is simply has to. The saw cuts put the cracks where you want them by introducing a line of weakness. I have no problem with anyone who want to put down 8-10" of concrete but without proper surface prep it can still break. We had an incident at work where the riggers had the top of a press slip from a sling on the front of a fork lift and the back wheels of the forklift rose up about 10 inches when they came down hard there was a big hole in the concrete which was at a minium of 8" thick. The concrete was nothing but rocks and powder.



My lift is on 7" thick pads of 4,000 psi concrete but almost every manufacturer of 10,000 lb two-post lifts is happy with 4" thick slabs and 3,500 psi mix. I feel safe under mine because i use safety stands at the ends of the vehicle not because the floor is thicker. I suspect most lift accidents are due to the balance, or perhaps the shifting balance, of the vehicle and not the floor giving out.



I recommend that anyone who is pouring a floor do some research on water curing the concrete, especially if it is in an enclosed space like a pole building. You will get a harder surface with less surface checking and the concrete's volume will stay high longer into the cure which makes it less likely to crack in undesirable places. Also concrete should be sawcut as soon as possible, like within a day. The concrete guy I used talked me into zip strips instead of sawcuts and I am very happy he did they don't collect crap like sawcuts.



Just my three cents worth.



Scott

 

[WVanHemert]

I recommend that anyone who is pouring a floor do some research on water curing the concrete, Scott

Couldn't agree more, some of the toughest concrete in the world is in bridge piers cause it cures under water. Concrete never stops hardening and the longer it stays wet the better it cures.

When pouring a slab, once it is troweled smooth and as soon as it can withstand it we like to put plastic over top, then about 4 to 8 hours later we lift the plastic and spray water and put the plastic down again, then next day we put a light misting sprinkler on for at least 7 days.

May seem like overkill but the difference in surface quality is impressive.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Quick update...

Well - I have a signed/accepted offer on my house and the closing date is July 20th. So, before long I should have some money to build a garage/shop.



I'll keep ya'all updated as the bids come in.



Beers,



Matt

 

[JJuday]

I just put up a 52X30 with 14' ceiling and a 14' rear overhang. So far so good, the overhang has come in handy for storing hay. I built a loft or mezelene or whatever you wanna call it 8'X25' in the back of the barn, using the top for storage and the bottom is for benches and tools.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

'nother update

House is sold - money is in the bank. Finally!



Scott (SMorneau) has graciously offered his assistance to review any plans I come up with. I hope to get a floor plan and a contractor nailed down in the next few weeks.



Let the games begin!



Beers,



Matt

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I got a quote back...



32' deep x 40' wide DETACHED (just like the first pic below, but without the breezeway), stick-built garage.

10' walls

Usual 'crete frost walls

'crete floor (without mods for lift)

clear span trusses - to maximize interior overhead room

NO electrical or interior finish or insulation



$11k for building materials (roof, siding, trusses, studs, service/car doors, openers, 2 simple windows, etc. )

$8. 1k for concrete (and I'm assuming excavation... )



Total quote = just a shade over $28k - that leaves ~$9k for the contractor and his laborer (who does 95% of the work).



Does it sound reasonable at all? Sounds high to me.



I'm going to call a few more places to get quotes to compare. I had a concrete-only contractor stop by the other night to put a bid in on the garage if it was attached... which is the more expensive route to go with the extra concrete and excavation involved.



Check out the pics and feel free to comment. FYI: I used Google SketchUp to make the 3D renderings/pics - a free and VERY handy program!



Beers,



Matt