Exploring garage/shop options - pole barn or not for attached building?

[HoleshotHolset]

The 2" thick EPS is rated at R10 - I can't imagine the bubble insulation is anywhere near that... that's something I'll need to investigate.



1" EPS went for ~$19/sheet - so using two layers of 1" would be almost double than just going with one layer of 2". I have roughly 1280ft² to cover and that's over 8-bills just for 2" EPS foam - ouch! The overlapping is a good idea - no doubt - but I plan on using 4-6mil plastic under the foam for the vapor barrier.



The whole idea of using insulation under the radiant slab (and beside it) is to create a thermal barrier between it and the cold ground. There aren't many types of insulation that beat EPS for R-value per inch.



Beers,



Matt

 

[HoleshotHolset]

The building permit came in the mail on Saturday!



I called Digger's Hotline (same thing as Dig Safe, etc. ) and set that up - so excavation could start as soon as the end of the week!



In the meantime, I need to come up with a somewhat innovative method of building this thing.



Since the garage will be attached to the end of the house - the roof trusses for the garage will be perpendicular to the house. This means that unless I build up a second wall right beside the gable end of the house, we'll have to tie into the house wall somehow to set trusses on top of it. Blah.



So - I either have to pour a second foundation/frost wall beside the current one for the house - or come up with something creative. I talked to the concrete guy and he wasn't real big on pouring a foundation/frost wall right up against and parallel to the existing one for the house.



We'll see how this all turns out pretty soon here - so feel free to share ideas/opinions on this subject.



Thanks,



Matt

 

[daveshoe]

Why go perpindicular to the existing house? It seems like the slope of the roof will run the water right in to your gable end. You want the weight bearing walls perpindicular to your house. Even if the new structure ties in at the eave[low side] you can still tie the roof together with a valley. If the garage ties in to a gable roof,no big deal unless there is a window in the way. Listen to your contractors. Hire someone to draw this thing up if it seems too complicated. Many lumber yards offer this service at a reasonable cost,and it looks to me like the savings on not constructing an additional bearing wall right next to your existing house would more than pay for getting the plans drawn up.

I do not wish to seem critical to you due to any misunderstanding,but I am one of a few guys left that can actually calculate hip and valley rafters just using a framing square. I once cut a complete set of hip rafters off the jobsite on a rainy day and installed them when the weather broke ---they fit. I say this only to encourage you to listen to the guys that are right there to help you.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Thanks for your input, Dave.



I'm going perpendicular to the existing house so that I don't have to cut down a bunch of huge trees and redesign the driveway to allow vehicle access to the rear of the property - especially the 35' x 50' old hay barn behind the house.



The load bearing walls of the garage are perpendicular to the house - you might be looking at an old design since I tossed around a few ideas... and wasn't sure if I could do an attached garage or not (for various reasons).



The clerk at the county office said that I couldn't have a garage with a ft² larger than the finished 1st floor ft² of the house - but they gave me the permit anyhow...



I've attached a few pics from the layout - this time showing the barn (red) and the outline of the existing driveway. Across the driveway from the barn is a row of big trees that I'd have to cut down if the garage were built parallel to the house.



Thanks,



Matt

 

[CSnyder]

The building permit came in the mail on Saturday!



I called Digger's Hotline (same thing as Dig Safe, etc. ) and set that up - so excavation could start as soon as the end of the week!



In the meantime, I need to come up with a somewhat innovative method of building this thing.



Since the garage will be attached to the end of the house - the roof trusses for the garage will be perpendicular to the house. This means that unless I build up a second wall right beside the gable end of the house, we'll have to tie into the house wall somehow to set trusses on top of it. Blah.



So - I either have to pour a second foundation/frost wall beside the current one for the house - or come up with something creative. I talked to the concrete guy and he wasn't real big on pouring a foundation/frost wall right up against and parallel to the existing one for the house.



We'll see how this all turns out pretty soon here - so feel free to share ideas/opinions on this subject.



Thanks,



Matt

Matt, another idea that has worked for customers of mine when I did construction was to use a breezeway between the house and garage. It not only works to eliminate tying the house and garage walls but also offers a nice entrance for guests, especially the unexpected or unwanted ones, so you dont have to invite them inside your home unless you want to. The last one I built was a 10 by 12 with patio glass on both external sides and a nice slate floor. It was really nice and open in there and they had a couple chairs and end tables along with a coat rack and boot box. We only put in 2 outlets and no heat or cooling. They just open up the house door for a few minutes to take the chill out of the room during the winter and the same in summer. I also personally thought it didnt make the house look so gawdy having the 4 stall shop/garage attached to it. The breezeway can also be added in later if you seperate the house and shop and may lower insurance rates. The best part of this plan also is that a breezeway doesnt involve hacking into your homes exterior extensively especially if you are doing this during cold monthes.



Chris

 

[tgordon]

Disclaimer: I am no engineer, or builder



You could use a header beam by the house to suppoert the load of the roof an dnot pour any foundation there. Or another idea I had, not knowing the layout of the house at all, is to simply use the house wall. But for that it may have to be built up some to handle the load.



Troy

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Chris:

NOW you chime in with that advice - nice work, man. :-laf

It's not too late to change my mind, but at a minimum, it'll cost me another $150 to file for a new permit.



Troy:

On the North side of the house where the garage is going - here's the working plan... we're going to tear off the siding/sheathing and then double up the existing 2x4 walls with 2x8's or 2x10's - that'll give us something substantial to build with.



I'm meeting with the concrete contractor again tonight and excavation could start by the middle of the week.



Matt

 

[tgordon]

The best part about something like 2x10, more room for insulation. Very helpfull if th eother half does not like to hear your half of the frustration, or just you beating the @%#$&*()&$%## out of something.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Groundbreaking ceremonies commenced yesterday afternoon around 2:30ish!



I'm no heavy equipment operator, but these guys seem VERY efficient and good at what they do.



Yes - that's mold/mildew on the North face of the house. It's going to be torn off soon. (We're not fond of the color of the siding or the windows/doors on the house... so the whole thing will probably be redone in the future. We're also not keen on the crappy landscaping all around the house - so digging a big hole for a garage gets rid of a lot of landscaping issues. )



I tore out the cement patio to the right of the stairs - which had dropped and become crooked over the years... and tore out the cement sidewalk leading away from the house - hence the bare ground in the middle of the grass.



I think we'll need some stairs leading up to that cement landing.

Shoot - I could almost put a door going into the basement! :-laf Something to consider...



Beers,



Matt

 

[HoleshotHolset]

They set and poured the footings yesterday... the day after excavation. There's nothing exciting about footings, but you can see the rebar sticking out every few feet. I checked them with a level last night and they're good to go.



This morning I met with them and they're setting the forms for the frost walls/foundation and they'll also be pouring them today. Tomorrow they're coming back to take the forms off!! These guys do GREAT work and they're extremely efficient.



Oo.



Matt

 

[rbattelle]

Poured foundation?

What's the trench for (the one close to the camera)?

Ryan

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Yup - poured frost walls/foundation... must have for stick-built construction, IMHO. They allow 'slab on grade' construction around here for standalone structures = detached garages. Anything attached to something that has frost walls/foundation must also use the same construction methods.



The contractors drilled into our foundation and anchored the new section to the old one. Everything has rebar in it - especially the corners on the end and LOTS of it where the two different levels meet.



For a frost wall to stay put during the freeze thaw cycles, it has to be below the frost line. Since the grade from the existing house foundation to the driveway changes by about 3', there wouldn't be enough foundation/frost wall in the ground to be effective. So, they dug a trench to make the foundation below the frost line and yet still keep the gable walls/foundation level.



Here are some recent pics...



Beers,



Matt

 

[rbattelle]

Those forms for the foundation walls are like an erector set, right? I mean, that stuff wasn't built custom for just this job.

Ryan

 

[AABEN]

There is a lot of people that is building pole barns and putting their home in side it. We have a man that put his bed rooms up 4 real nice large rooms with a large bath up also. Looks real good to me. 50x100 took half for his house. I thank the heat in the floor is the verry best you can get. Heat rises up. There is a bilding here that has heat in the floor. Was built in the late 50s. Still doing a verry good job.

 

[AABEN]

Around here, when people put up a shop or a shed - they build a pole barn 9. 8 times out of 10.



Has anyone ever attached a pole barn to a stick-built house? The wife's place is a single-story ranch house without any sort of garage - so to kill two birds with a single shot, I figured I'd have someone build an attached garage/shop instead of a standalone structure.



I really want a frost wall/foundation and a poured floor with radiant heat... I just don't relish the traditional pole barn idea of lumber sitting in the dirt... even if it is surrounded by some cement.



The garage building shenanigans will happen after I sell my place - which if I'm lucky will be in a month or two.



Thoughts, suggestions, etc.



Many thanks,



Matt

There is a lot of people that is building pole barns and putting their home in side it. We have a man that put his bed rooms up 4 real nice large rooms with a large bath up also. Looks real good to me. 50x100 took half for his house. I thank the heat in the floor is the verry best you can get. Heat rises up. There is a bilding here that has heat in the floor. Was built in the late 50s. Still doing a verry good job. Put a 3 to 4 in drop in floor! That way water will run to the door.

 

[tgordon]

I have noticed few around here like that, pol ebarn house. Next door they are building a house with styrafoam blocks that get filled with concrete. Act as insulation also. The guy building it claims they are r20 or better, I just get a little nervous with concrete/styrofoam as the structure also as it appears they are doing.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Those forms for the foundation walls are like an erector set, right?

Exactly. The forms are wooden (~1" thick plywood) and have studs and 'hinges' that interlock them together. They come in varying widths and lengths to accomodate the job. There are also a bunch of brackets and other re-usable hardware to help tie everything together.



In addition to the forms holding each other together end-to-end, there's also steel ties running straight through the foundation and forms tying into the hinges... this keeps things parallel when you pour the concrete and keeps the forms from blasting apart from the pressure. This pressure was evident when I twisted off the stub ends of all the ties on Saturday AM - the forms popped out a bit (~1/32") at me since the pressure was relieved. Once the concrete fully cures, you bust off the nubs with a hammer and twist off the remainder of the ties on both sides of the wall - so you're left with pieces of the tie in the wall which isn't a bad thing.



BTW: The forms are coated with oil as a release agent so that the concrete doesn't stick too much to them. Some concrete still sticks, but it's very easily removed.



Cheers,



Matt

 

[SMorneau]

The styrofoam blocks are called, ICF, insulated concrete forms. They are superior structures for homes. The insulation is fantastic and they are dead quiet. Retrofitting things into outside walls is a bear and they do cost a few bucks. But very nice and very strong compared to stick construction.

 

[therabbittree]

Looking good Matt! I hadn't seen this thread in a while. . lots of progress. . I thought you were still in the "Planning" phase hahah

Good deal

Later

Deo

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Thanks, Deo.



I haven't updated the thread in a while... but I have been taking pictures and doing a lot of work on it.



Beers,



Matt