Exploring garage/shop options - pole barn or not for attached building?

[TravisG]

Hey!!!! You know a carpenter that lives fairly close to you and could probably come in a little lower and do a lot better job. I will try to call you or e-mail you tomorrow. Gotta hurry though before it gets to cold.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Hey, Travis!



I gave you a call on Friday - gimme a jingle anytime, man.



I got a quote on just cement/excavation work recently. This is for the more expensive option - garage attached directly to house. This option requires quite a bit of excavation and a lot more concrete due to the slope of the land. (Frost walls will be ~6' high in some spots) Go figure that it was about $300 LESS than the first contractor's quote for a detached building on LEVEL land (less desirable option, IMHO) - he's also sending along an itemized quote, something the first guy didn't offer - strange.



We went down to Menards today to price out building materials:

32' deep x 40' long x 10' walls

Gable roof w/ 4/12 pitch

Rafter roof (no trusses) 16" O. C.

12" gable and 24" eave overhangs (to match house, etc. )

2x4 wall studs

1/2" OSB for walls / 1/2" 3-ply plywood roof sheathing

20-year fiberglass/asphalt shingles

4" shingleover ridge vent

Aluminum soffit/fascia

Typar wrap

Double 4" lap vinyl siding

8' by 16' insulated garage door

10'(?) by 9' insulated garage door

36" 20-min fire rated service door

2 - 36"x36" windows with insulated glass



Total cost of building materials: $7796. 33

That's more than $3000 less than what the 1st contractor quoted for building materials. Sorry dude, that's a BIG markup.



Now I just gotta find me a dude to nail stuff together - or help me nail it together.



Thanks again for your insight, guys. This won't be a dream shop, but it should provide shelter for the daily drivers/other junk and still give me a sizeable workbay for welding and wrenching.



Beers,



Matt

 

[jtisdale]

Just remember Matt, you really have to be careful when buying from Menards. Some of the sheet they sell I wouldnt use to build a dog house.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Dan/Jim:



I definitely agree and hear what you're saying - that's good advice. Menards does have some absolute crap... but they do still have good prices and good selection on some of the better stuff.



The local lumber yard the first quote came from is notoriously high priced - I don't like to shop there unless I have to. On a percentage basis, the price difference between Menards/lumber yard is HUGE (over 40%). My materials list was about as close as I could get to what the contractor discussed - despite his use of trusses, and OSB everywhere, etc.



The first contractor talked me out of a lot of the things I wanted in my original plan and didn't even want to discuss attaching the garage to the house - I think he was hoping I'd cave and just pay the premium for everything. He outright refused to do a rafter construction roof and insisted on using trusses. He also said that it was impossible to do one section of the building with trusses and the other section as a rafter roof. Huh?! Ease and speed of construction and making a seemingly unreasonable profit seems to be his #1 priority.



In the end, I may be proven wrong in my belief that his prices were way high - but I take big projects involving big numbers quite seriously and I will scrutinize the details. I don't know many people out here in WI yet, so that also causes me to be overly cautious. If I were building this back in MA, it wouldn't be a problem - I know all sorts of folks that do this sort of thing and I know their reputations.



Adding to my frustration is the fact that the contractor never provided or discussed a written estimate. He just called me up with the numbers. He actually called yesterday to see what I thought of his verbal estimate and I told him that his numbers were way too high. He seems like a nice guy, but I'm not at all impressed with his business sense.



The saga continues...



Beers,



Matt

 

[SMorneau]

Just remember Matt, you really have to be careful when buying from Menards. Some of the sheet they sell I wouldnt use to build a dog house.

This used to be very true but now they are about like everyone else. The lumber comes from the same mills and they produce the metal products themselves and it's actually very good quality. The building steel has some very well designed geometry and it holds it form much better than most of the other steel I have seen. Some of the tools they sell are still trash but the building materials are pretty much a commodity.



Scott

 

[jtisdale]

This used to be very true but now they are about like everyone else. The lumber comes from the same mills and they produce the metal products themselves and it's actually very good quality. The building steel has some very well designed geometry and it holds it form much better than most of the other steel I have seen. Some of the tools they sell are still trash but the building materials are pretty much a commodity.



Scott

Bull ****.

We have built 2 this year with menards material (per customer trying to save a buck). A lot of it is crap. The wood is often knotty, warped, crowned and/or twisted. All lumber is not equal. There are different grades. If you hand pick through the stacks you can get some 2x's that are fine, but who has time for that? Maybe for a small project. The steel is too thin in my opinion. Its not even close to 29 gauge. You can score it with a utility knife and break it in half.

Its not all crap, you just have to be careful and selective when buying.

 

[SMorneau]

The steel that was put on my building is advertised as 29 gauge; how thick should it be? They do make a thinner panel and they also make a thicker panel.



The wood situation at Menards use to very bad around here. Perhaps they are handling higher grades in this area or the contractor specified a higher grade. I know the stores around here are not allowing a lot of junk to accumulate on the stacks like they used to.



No doubt that sometimes local lumberyards are better. I bought ironwood for a deck project from a small town yard that beat everyone on price and service.

 

[rbattelle]

The steel that was put on my building is advertised as 29 gauge;

0. 0135"? Wow, that's thin. I have no idea whether that's "normal" or not for steel buildings.



Ryan

 

[jtisdale]

Residential/ag pole shed steel is typically 29 ga. Commercial is typically 26. We built a cattle shed last fall with Strong Panel 29 ga. and it had to be cut with snips. I dont know what the difference in steel is from one to the next, but just by handling it and working with different brands, anyone could tell a big difference.

I really dont mean to bash Menards, or anyone who owns/builds their buildings. Hell, I shop there for a lot of stuff.

You just have to know what your getting and be happy with it when your done...

Scott, I apologize for coming across as a dink in my earlier post. I consider Matt a good friend and I just wanted him to understand there can be a big difference in the quality and prices of materials.

 

[TravisG]

Matt- I haven't forgot about you. I have been real busy plus I dropped my cell from about 40' up and then there was all this beer at Scheids. Anywayz I will try to give you a jingle tomorrow.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Little update:



I called an 1-866 number earlier this week that I thought was just a toll free number for a local builder. Come to find out - it was 1-800 Contractor / Service Magic. No permanent harm done, though - within 2 minutes of hanging up with the operator with Service Magic - I had a call from a local contractor and he wanted to come out that night to have a looksee.



He turned out to be a very nice guy, been doing construction (mostly custom homes) for at least 50 years (he's 74 and still full of energy). Everything I wanted to do was no big deal for him - a complete 180° turn from the 1st contractor. I said I wanted 1/2 of the roof to be cathedral/scissor truss for overhead room for the lift and the other half to have a regular trussed roof for storage above the daily driver section. His response to everything: "That's no problem at all. "



I told him that I liked the quote that I got from a standalone concrete contractor and he wasn't upset at all that he wouldn't get a piece of that pie. Here's the concrete quote:



Description: Quantity: Amount:

3' 9" tall x 8" thick - frost walls & footings 109 linear ft. $2943

7' 9" tall x 8" thick - frost walls & footings 11 linear ft. $418

Post pads (for lift) 2 $96

Garage floor - 4" thick 1280ft² $3520

Excavation ? $850



Total:

$7827



Anywho - that contractor called me up yesterday and said that materials would run ~$9170 and that labor would be about the same. (That seemed a little odd... labor = materials cost??) This is just for a dried-in garage - no insulation, no electrical, etc. So, his quote brings me up to a grand total of a shade over $26,000 - not too shabby considering it's 2K LESS than the original contractor quoted for a DETACHED garage.



I could do a lot of this work myself with proper guidance (I'd especially need help with the framing) - so the $9k in labor seems high for that reason. But if you want quality work done, it's gonna cost you.



Scott/Jim - I really value your opinions and experience - each of you knows your stuff, that's for sure. You guys are both good friends to me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts - good and bad.



Travis: Gimme a call anytime, man! Even if you don't have time to help me build this dern garage - we still need to have a beer or 10 at some point!



Hell - I'm thinking we ALL need to have a beer or 10 at some point. Let's get this garage built and then it'll be time to invade Matt's place for a BBQ / Beerfest.



Beers,



Matt

 

[SMorneau]

Jim I took no offense to your comments. I thought they were kind of amusing because I used to hate Menards and rarely got out of there without thinking BULL**** about something or the other. In recent years they have changed, but apparently not accross the board. I think you brought up a good point to consider; if you are hiring someone to do the job you should trust them to source materials where they have good experience.



Matt is in the overload stage of planning and he is asking all the right questions. I had to go thru the same thing and I found there is not always a common consensus on techniques or materials so you really have to sort thru things and come up with your own opinion of what works best on your application. The concrete part of my project scared me the most because of all the non-reversable work and the huge expense. In my case it turned out the lowest bidder did very high quality work, he came with excellent recommendations from the guy who constructed my pole building who was very good to work with.



Matt, why not just make the entire ceiling the same height? I think the higher ceiling with a ceiling fan would better dissipate smoke from welding and probably add to the roominess of the place. You can also use the height above benches where you can bridge them with commercial racking and get some extra storage space, lighting the bench area from underneath.



Scott

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Matt is in the overload stage of planning...

You can say that again, my friend.

Matt, why not just make the entire ceiling the same height?

I'm building the garage for two purposes - storage for the daily drivers (and other crap... ) and a work/lift bay on the other side. I wanted a normal ceiling height in the daily driver portion so that the 'attic' above that could be used for light storage. The portion over the work/lift bay must be as high as possible. I'm going with a 10' wall - so even the daily driver portion will have pretty high ceilings.



I've attached a proposed floor plan...



As always - thanks for your input, folks!



Beers,



Matt

 

[SS]

The house looks kinda small, but I like the garage! :-laf



3 vehicle bays, a skid steer, and a hoist bay seems a little optomistic in 40'. No matter how big it looks empty after you first build it, I swear shops must shrink over time.



I drew mine out with all the tools, shelves, benches, etc. too just to get a feel for the best layout so I think you have the right approach. Again, I always find that the scale drawing doesn't tell the full story for door swing, tool access, and all the real world use of the stuff.

 

[rbattelle]

Matt, I think you need a better CAD program!

I think that lift bay is far too small. And the HVAC/compressor room needs to be much bigger. Big enough that you can install at least 2 horizontal 120 gallon compressors (you never know... ).

How about a welding room with extra ventilation? Plus areas set aside for grinding (with extra ventilation), and abrasive blasting? Maybe an area for painting/finishing?

What about other machinery you'll need? Are you running 480 3-phase to the building?

I don't know about you, but I dream of an overhead gantry crane! Have you considered designing for one?

Ryan

 

[HoleshotHolset]

... 3 vehicle bays, a skid steer, and a hoist bay seems a little optomistic in 40'.

The two daily drivers are tiny VW's - we could put them one behind the other in 32' with ease if we had to. Also - the 12-valve hardly ever gets used, so it'll be off to the side out of the weather and resting 99% of the time. If I need it, I'll pull one VW out of the way and swing it out. The skidsteer is also something we'll hardly ever use and we don't even own one yet.

I think you need a better CAD program!

I've got a copy of SolidWorks, but don't have the time to learn it (yet). Google SketchUp was FREE and only took me a short while to get a good grasp of it. I'm not carving this project from billet on a 6-axis CNC machine - I did the 3D renderings to get an idea of the layout and try different ideas in the digital realm.

... at least 2 horizontal 120 gallon compressors (you never know... )

Are you high? I'm NEVER going to need more than a 60 gallon vertical tank with a decent ~5hp compressor. If I need a bigger compressor, the next size up (in my mind) comes mounted on a trailer and runs on diesel fuel.

Bear in mind, the layout .jpg wasn't to scale and was a 10 minute exercise to put the layout I've had in my head into action.

Sand blasting will be done outside in the field, if I ever do any of that. I also don't plan on spray bombing anything - I really don't enjoy doing body work of any kind.

I'm installing a few 50A outlets in each half of the garage so I can weld nearly anywhere in the garage. Having a totally separate room for welding/grinding is a good idea, but I'd need the room to be the size of the whole bay... so the whole bay is the welding room in my shop - problem solved.

There isn't 3-phase power within 5 miles of my house. Out here, we're lucky to have copper phone lines and primary voltage. Each house has its own pole pig to knock primary down to 240VAC...

When I outgrow this shop - there's still room for other detached buildings on the property. I've been amazed what can be done with a 24'x24' garage, so I should be able to do even more damage with a 32'x40'.

Thanks for the input guys. If I didn't have a set budget to work with, I'd already have a 96'x120' mansion.

Next step is getting permits then I'm going to be calling the concrete guy this week to see when he can start.

Beers,

Matt

 

[rbattelle]

I'm NEVER going to need more than a 60 gallon vertical tank with a decent ~5hp compressor.

Famous last words... :-laf



Ryan

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I know what you mean, Ryan. Here's why I don't need to go big with the compressor: Dad still runs his portable/small/inexpensive Craftsman compressor that is coming up on 15 years old and he has managed to run all sorts of things with that old beast... even a 1" impact gun. If you don't free up the fastener in a few seconds with that thing, it's going to snap it in half.



I don't plan on doing much more work in my garage than Dad has in his, so I'll be lightyears ahead just with a bigger tank and better compressor. The type of work I'll be doing in my shop will tie up a bay for months on end - something I've never really been able to do before and neither has Dad.



Beers,



Matt

 

[CSnyder]

Matt, if you have an extra room, a shower, a cook, and cold beer I could come stay a few days here and there to help you out bud. Remember I framed 5000+ sq ft homes for several years as my own company and can easily handle a 32 by 40 garage. Forgot to mention... I do snore REAL loud so you have to be able to handle that too. I can bring my hired man too if you want to pay him his usual wages to help you. He has done alot of carpentry work also. Let me know Matt!



Chris

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Thanks for the offer, Chris.

I'm going through the process of getting a permit and will be making some sort of decision (contractor or not... ) in the next few weeks.



I saw yesterday at Menards... that darn 2" high density EPS insulation (for under the slab) runs ~$21 for a 4'x8' sheet for Owens Corning.

It'll be worth it, though.



I'm really starting to get psyched about this project and appreciate the input from my TDR brothers!



Matt