Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) F-1 Mach 4's

[kelly4463]

went to work today with comp box off it ran sweet

 

[mhuggler]

Timing!

You take the box out = no more timing advance.



The ECM has maps that deal with the timing / IAT. Obviously the box does not... .



Marco

I guess cold air needs less timing advance. Would the regular catcher(the one with advanced timing) still have the shudder, or can it compensate enough to eliminate or reduce it?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Timing!

You take the box out = no more timing advance.



The ECM has maps that deal with the timing / IAT. Obviously the box does not... .



Marco

MORE to the point, it would seem the add-on boxes take the timing/fueling OFF/outside the ECM program map, causing the conditiond discussed here. The addition of the F1 1. 6's in my truck cause a minor bit of "power pulse", but it goes away if I just turn the Comp off, and even at that is only observed in lower settings when towing. Seems the Comp causes the ECM to start rapidly "hunting" for the best engine operation, but can't find it since it's off the map...



In my case, it's noticeable, but not really an issue of concern, and easily controlled. .

 

[Marco]

Would the regular catcher(the one with advanced timing) still have the shudder, or can it compensate enough to eliminate or reduce it?

Remember, I play with the brain of the whole system. I know ( and can ), how / where / when, advance the timing. Something an external box just simply can not do. A box as simple as they're on the market today can only add a "static" timing to what comes out from the ECM. From an electronics point of view,that has it's limits. Looks like some have found that limit.



So in other words CaTCHER = No shudder.



Marco

 

[rubberneck]

My truck has done this almost since new. even with no box at all i get a shudder. The bigger the injectors, the worse it gets, but like others, usually only in colder weather @55 or below. I am not willing to give up my comp box, but maybe the special comp catcher is in my future. The only hesitation i have is that i really like being able to shut the comp off and have almost zero smoke, not to mention it makes driving in the snow a lot nicer. Marco, do you have any programs that are very mild/almost non existant as far as hp increase in the lower rpms that would work with my comp. I would buy the catcher if all it did was got rid of my shudder and added no HP. If my shudder doesnt' go away will you take the ECM back

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I'm curious as to how much latitude, or overhead, the ECM has for timing/fueling conditions that lie outside it's stock mapping. Is there enough latitude for INCREASING the "broadness" of that mapping, or are increases made to ONE end of the map sacrificing operational elements at some other point in the mapping?

 

[mhuggler]

Here's a question; 12 valvers don't even have iat sensors. Why don't they have any problems with changing air temps. (that I know of)?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Here's a question; 12 valvers don't even have iat sensors. Why don't they have any problems with changing air temps. (that I know of)?

They are cruder, and have fewer sensor controls than what later pumps do - some view that as a BAD thing - later ones ARE certainly more complex - but DOES allow far greater programming/performance abilities on-the-fly, for less cost.



It cost my nearly $2000 to do LESS on my '91 truck, than what $600 did on the '02...

 

[R-N-R]

Big injectors and timing boxes have been around for several years. Is this problem just coming to the surface?

 

[Bob Wagner]

I remeber way back when supermental were not that streetable without a large dose of fuel additive :-laf



we have come a long way baby





150HP injectors today are very streetable and then some

 

[EBung]

I was going to post this similar question myself but didnt know how to explain but shudder is good word. I just hauled a big load of fire wood about 100 miles yesterday and it was high 30s low 40s the whole time and with Comp on lower settings it had a shudder or mis at about 30lbs of boost that would act like a complete dead spot for about a split second that would bark the turbo then just smooth out and keep acclerating. I could get it to do it at will when accelerating at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle with box on and it wont do it with box off or on 5x5. It doesnt do like it did with the Superchip programmer and the big injectors which was shudder constantly at full throttle. I think it does definitly have somthing to do with colder outside temps though.

 

[R-N-R]

I remeber way back when supermental were not that streetable without a large dose of fuel additive :-laf



we have come a long way baby





150HP injectors today are very streetable and then some

So are 165s

 

[rubberneck]

Big injectors and timing boxes have been around for several years. Is this problem just coming to the surface?

No, i have had this problem since new. I remember reading an article by BlueChips talking about the problem. Up to this point, nobody was reprograming ECM's however. (at least they were not availalbe to the general public) Mine is very noticealbe (annoying) even with comp completely off. Bob Wagner, are the catchers sold outright, or exchange only. I have been searching for an ECM to send in, but am not having much luck. I really would like to hang on to my stocker though.

 

[rubberneck]

Ok, answered some of my own questions by reading the other threads. Bob, I see in the other threads that you sell stockers that can be sent to marco, and then we keep our own. A couple of questions. My truck is a california 01 ETH. Now i am assuming that in stock configuration, the "california" trucks have some different emission requirements. I could give a rats butt about emisions, so will a federal ecm work in a california truck, or does it not even matter once marco reprograms it? Also, can marco take out the gawd awful exhaust brake delay feature of the stock ecm? I will be looking for a special catcher to go with my drag comp.

 

[Bob Wagner]

I just sold a 02/6sp/carb catcher to a guy in Pasadena. It turns out that the only change made to the carb HO's is the emission sticker



installed a 02/6ps/fed catcher and the truck runs perfect.



The last batch of catchers ship next week

 

[rubberneck]

Bob, do you have any extra 6spspecials coming in that last batch, or are they already spoken for? I am going to call you tomorrow, I have decided that i must have one of these things. If it does nothing more than fix my damn shudder, i will shout from the roof tops. I have been considering a p-pump conversion just to eliminate it. If this thing works, that will be a whole lot easier

 

[Boondocker]

1600 rpm stumble

I've been having a similar problem recently that is intermitent, but getting more frequent. I would describe it as a stumble, almost as if my foot slipped off the accelerator. I mostly notice it during light acceleration with the Comp on a low (usually 1) sublevel, but have felt it at higher rpm, 2000-2200. I don't know if this is related, but I occassionally get P0237 codes, which can set the CEL. My OBDII scanner is beginning to pay for itself with code clears.



I've tried turning the Comp off, particularly when the engine is cold, but still get the stumble, just not as pronounced.



Today, I disconnected the Comp harness: Map, Data Link, and power. I made a 250 mile trip, with several stops. At no time did I experience any stumble. I miss the responsiveness and extra power, but the stumble and codes bother me a lot. I'll drive it this way for a week to see if the difference is consistent.



I would give up the Comp and go for a Catcher, but I don't think either of the current Catcher programs are ideal for an HO motor with a 6-speed manual. I think a Catcher program for the HO-6spd needs more timing than a Special and less timing than a Regular, and a less aggressive fueling rate to avoid the all-or-nothing throttle response and "1/2 pedal" syndrome.



So Marco or Bob, if you think there's a big enough market here to warrent a third program for the HO-6spd contingent, I'll be more than happy to provide feedback



Thanks,

Neil

 

[Koa Man]

I put a Catcher in my 01 HO and the difference in power you can actually feel was unbelievable. My wife did not like having to very slowly roll on throttle to avoid making black smoke, although she loved the new power. Bob Wagner told me to send it back and he can have Marco reprogram it to be less aggressive. So to answer your question, I guess Marco can program it in several ways.

 

[Marco]

Apples & oranges.

There's shudder and shudder. Not all are created the same! :-laf



So please let's narrow down what can cause that cold temp shudder.

Some times last autum / winter the exact same discussion came up, when the temps then raised the thread died...



From my experience i know of a few different ways to get a cummins to shudder in the colder temps. What's been found so far ( that I'm aware of ) to cause that shudder - Miss - Stumble, TDR's archieve is full of this problem...



1) Electrical gremlins.

This one should no be too difficult to find. Check and clean all the grounds. Check and clean then grease all the connectors.



2) Caused by timing adding boxes. Take the chip out completly. If the problem is gone... This one I've seen often. These boxes add too much timing.



3) A bad ECM.

One of our members had that problem since the truck was new. It became worse as he added power. He has send me his original ECM over for the CaTCHER. I found the memory chips were bad. I've replaced them with new ones, then did the CaTCHER thing to it. Voilà stumble is gone. No doubt this one was caused by the ECM. Chris care to chime in?



4) Bad VP. It should shudder always but I've heard of a couple guys who got it only in colder climates. The new VP fixed it.



5) There've been a few very early softwares that had a problem with the fuel maps. It's been corrected by DC long ago anyway if you have an 98 or early 99 and have never updated the software you could still have that lil bug.



6) POOR injectors... .



7) Last not least, general tollerances VP / Engine. Not all engines are perfectly indentical. It could depend upon how close each of the components is to specs. More often than not that stumble is caused by too much timing.

What if certain pumps are a little more advanced than others? That would mean that a lower timing would solve the situation? Been there done that too... . Don't ask... . :-laf



To come to an end. Befor you throw parts and hard earned money at it, try to understand under which of the above your truck could fall.



rubberneck, are you listening? Your stumble is obviously NOT caused by a box. You need to invetigate into a different direction. And no if I build you an ECM, I will NOT take it back if it does not fix your problem. I'm trying to deliver performance enhancers, not trouble fixers. Get my point?



Marco

 

[Chrisw]

3) A bad ECM.

One of our members had that problem since the truck was new. It became worse as he added power. He has send me his original ECM over for the CaTCHER. I found the memory chips were bad. I've replaced them with new ones, then did the CaTCHER thing to it. Voilà stumble is gone. No doubt this one was caused by the ECM. Chris care to chime in?

Hay Marco is talking about me The only thing I have to say is Marco "YOU THE MAN" and if is wasn't for him I would have a new truck by now. Don't worry it would still be a Cummins The shudder - miss - stumble or what ever you want to call it was so bad on my truck I wouldn't even drive it if temps fell below 30. Let alone try and tow, That was way out of the question, It would have destroyed the truck if I would have tried to tow when the temps was low. I feel sorry for the guys with this problem because it really suck big time. But it can be fixed



Again I have to add Marco you the man Not only did he save my truck it also makes 556 HP thanks to him