for all of those who said iraq was a failed plan

[Jff24Gordn]

A Failed Plan?



1. We took Iraq in less time than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.



2. It took less time to find evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.



3. It took Teddy Kennedy longer to call the police after his Oldsmobile sunk at Chappaquiddick than it took the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard.



4. We took Iraq in less time than it took to count the votes in Florida in the year 2000!



And the Democrats called the Iraq effort a failed plan?

 

[Champane Flight]

Failed?

Evidence and actually finding them is one thing. The amount of time it took to take Iraq proves they were no real threat to anyone. And to top it off we have over 1600 civilian deaths and over 100 American deaths in this war. Now we have a rebuilding to pay for and a occupation for how long? Failed? No, it was all we expected it to be.

 

[illflem]

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71532

 

[Shrimpy]

What do you want out of our leaders?? Whether you lean Repub. or Dem, what do you expect from our leaders??



For the first time in 8 years, we have a group who by their actions are being LEADERS. Do leaders have to make hard decisions, unpopular decisions, often decisions that put peoples lives in danger?? You bet they do.



I am not a gung-ho, turn the place into a parking lot, war at all cost type of person. But there comes a time when we as a country have to believe and trust the decisions that our ELECTED leaders make. And we must ask whatever higher being we ascribe to, to help guide them. If they are making bad decisions, history will refute them.



When you look at the situation, ONLY 1600 civilian casualties. Saddam killed more than that EVERY YEAR. I believe that the country has a population of roughly 15 million. So there were One Tenth of One Percent killed. I agree, even one is a tragic event, but every thinking person understands that in war there will be casualties. I grieve for our lost soldiers. In my warped corner of trying to make sense of things, I hope there families can grasp the magnitude of their loved ones sacrifice. They are heroes in my book.



I am not a very religious person, but I take solace in trying to understand things by reading the book of Ecclestiaces (sp) in the Old Testament. The entire chapter is very enlightening. I am not trying to push it (religion) on anyone, just stating how I try to deal with things that cause me to question things in my life.







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Deleted direct material calling out another user.

Robin

TDR Admin

04/22/03

 

[Champane Flight]

Christian

It is funny how the christian right always use the old testament for an excuse to kill and the new to be forgiven themselves.



Our fallen soldiers are heros, every one of them. They follow orders, they are the poor, they are the roots, they are the ones who gives their lives for their country. While the elite, the ones we elect, the ones who have never seen war, the ones with the silver spoons, and the ones who preach morals, yet have none, send the soldiers to war. I would expect much more than this from any elected official.



A politician with morals and character are no more and have not been for a long time.

 

[Shrimpy]

Why is is always the POOR who go off to war??? Last time I checked, an American Aviator (any branch) is not some kid from South Central or Hells Kitchen. They are highly educated (College graduates) with much training. Infantry folks are definently not all College grads, but some surely are (Platoon leaders).



Who said anything about USING the bible to justify something?? I plainly said that I use it to look for answers for questions in my life sometimes.



One thing you forget CF is that our military is completely VOLUNTARY. If you don't like the idea of POSSIBLY getting shot at, don't join. Very simple. But I will beat you to the response you will give, something along the lines of this was all that was avaliable to them. Horse hockey!!!!!! They could go to any tech school and learn to work on jets, cars, boats you name it. There is AMPLE financial assistance for those who WORK looking for it.



Next you can tell us how racist the military is because ONLY POOR minorities are killed. That was a lie back during Vietnam and it is still a LIE today.



Because they were never in the service means they could not possibly know how to win, or manage a war. That is why leaders have career military people in their inner circle. By your reasoning, a person cannot be a success in life unless their parents were. Another in the long line of myths of the Liberal Left.

 

[JConley]

CF... Once again we see things totally opposite of each other. Congress authorized the use of force, and there are many ex-military members in Congress. I guess you forgot about those guys huh??



Obviously it is pretty easy to sit in your home and second guess what we have done, but from first hand experience, I can tell you that getting Saddam out of power is on par with removing Hitler during WW2. If you think this was a mistake, its too bad you cant take a ride to Bagdad so you can see the despaity and living conditions in Iraq. Be sure to bring a lot of food and water with you because the kids like to beg or steal it out of your Humvee.



You keep throwing this at Bush, but remember this war could have been avoided if Saddam would have given up power. Looking at the big picture, we freed millions from a tyrant.



I am still trying to figure out your statement on how the Iraqi's were no threat to anybody since I went through more than a few skud attacks in Kuwait. I think the Kuwaiti's would disagree with your threat assessment. Fact is that Saddam was a threat to every one of his neighbors, and the US.



From where I sit, if you think that getting Saddam out of power was wrong, then you must think that it's OK to rape, kill, plunder and torture people.

 

[big jake 1]

J Conley:



thank you for your service and be sure to tell everyone else in your unit that



everyone else here certainly supports you and the rest of the troops over there in harms way.



Keep up the good work and keep your head down





big jake

 

[sdalton]

Only as long as it isnt happening to him, or his family. Sound familiar?? Zig Heil, and Guden Naben CF. Spelling might be off, but that is how most of the world would be talking now if America kept that same opinion 60 years ago.

 

[merryman]

I feel a bit like a broken record, but I am constantly reminded of the heat Churchhill took from all those who in the 1930's insisted that he was a war monger full of impure motives when he wanted to do something about that harmless little paper hanger over in germany. Hitler was no threat to the rest of the world--he just had a legitimate boundry dispute with a neighbor.



The anti war group was so strong in this country, (using nearly the EXACT arguments we see on here), that Roosevelt had to keep his efforts to support Churchhill secret for fear of impeachment. That lasted right up to Dec. 7, 1941



All the peace fanatics thought that the claim that little ol japan was a threat to anyone good for a real laugh. They NEVER learn that sometimes you can mollify and talk your way right into deep do-do.

Saddam, was sure disapointed when their efforts did not bail him out this time as he expected; he seemed sure that the peace-nics would get Bush ll off his back as they secceded with his father in the first gulf war. He really needed more time to develope weapons that would enable him to deal with the US military. Our peace nics ---out of foolish short sightedness, sure seemed to be trying to give him the time he needed.



Vaughn

 

[Champane Flight]

Too bad

Too bad those same kids will still be stealing food out of Humvee in two years from now. Only we will have to probably have to shoot at them to keep them away by then. How many of these scuds took any lives? This anti missile system was in place before the war to? And when did the scud attacks take place? Before we went into Iraq or after? It does take some perspective, does it not. Preemptive strike, or nation/empire building? It still amazes me that we were able to protect the oil, but not the antiquities, and the hospitals. Shows where our/his real priorities lie. What burns my hide is that the higher ups put some little First luey on the hot seat in front of the news media answering questions about why this wasn't done!!!!



All volunteer? What choice in life do you have if you live in the big city, or the small town, or in Podunk? You can go to work for the local factory at just over minimum wage, or maybe try for a school loan. But, for some the military was the only way they could get the education you speak of. I will and always support our troops, but do not ask me to believe in GWB. He has never been in battle, and never will be!



You cannot even begin to compare Saddam with Hitler. There is no comparison. Hitler had conquered half of Europe before we joined the war! Saddam had conquered what? And what happened after that? I do agree there is a time for war. This was not one of them. Another name for preemptive is aggression. I don't feel a bit safer since the sacking of Iraq. If we are this paranoid, the rest of the middle east better arm themselves!

 

[fest3er]

Re: Too bad

Originally posted by Champane Flight
... You cannot even begin to compare Saddam with Hitler. There is no comparison. Hitler had conquered half of Europe before we joined the war! Saddam had conquered what? And what happened after that? I do agree there is a time for war. This was not one of them. Another name for preemptive is aggression. I don't feel a bit safer since the sacking of Iraq. If we are this paranoid, the rest of the middle east better arm themselves!

CF, I *do* hope you aren't suggesting that we should have waited until Saddam had and used nukes and chemical weapons against Turkey, Israel, Kuwait, Iran and other nations in the area before acting. I *do* hope you aren't suggesting that we should have waited until 10 million Kurds, Iranians, Iraqis, Israelis, Palestinians and others in the region were gassed, imrisoned, enslaved, tortured and murdered before taking action.

After all, this is what happened in Europe in the 1930s, when Hilter was allowed to do as he pleased.

We let it happen once. And our current leaders decided that it was wrong then, and it would be wrong to let it happen today. Thus we put a stop to it, at least in Iraq.

There are more places that need bloody tyrants purged. And, as much as I dislike violence and discord, I firmly believe we, the USA, the sole superpower of the world, need to go in to these places and depose the tyrants by force - once diplomacy fails.

War is never desireable; but it is often inevitable. War is never pretty, but it can wipe out the resident ugliness and leave the people far better off.

I fully expect that the US will militarily occupy Iraq for at least five years. It will take that long to remove all vestiges of Saddam's minions, restore peace, maintain peace, and help the Iraqi people form a new government that does not allow one group to dominate/repress/murder any other group. It will take that long for the civil authorities to re-earn the trust of the Iraqi people.

The road to peace, freedom and liberty in Iraq may not be a smooth one, but it is a road we must travel.

Fest3er

 

[daveshoe]

Do not ask me to believe in GWB. he has never been in battle and never will be

I think that I could support your requirement that battle tested applicants only need apply for the position of President-- it might have saved us from my then ten year old daughter wondering what ''oral sex'' was

I sincerely hope that it is a long time before the activities of a President are deemed unfit for children to access on a school internet server-- and I do not care which party he is from!

 

[wcaldwell]

CF,



I guess, from your comments about GWB having never been in combat that if I were to run for president (my ego isn't that big), I would be unfit for that office.



I served for 20 years in the Air Force, from Nov 72 through May 80 then from Dec 80 through May 93. We had 4 'wars' then - Viet Nam, Panama, Granada, and Saudi. I was never sent to any of them. As such, I have no combat experience and judging from your comment about GWB, I'm unqualified to be president.



But WJC, (obviously your hero) having been an alleged

"Attorney General" was qualified to become a governor and therefore was qualified to be president, even after he went to Europe to protest the Viet Nam war. I remember Algore commenting that GWB wasn't qualified to be president - he (GWB) had only been a governor and had no federal government experience. I'm still trying to figure that one out - WJC was only a governor - definitely president material. GWB was only a governor - but not presidential material.



I think one of the main problems you have with GWB is his open Christianity. He doesn't just talk it - he truly lives it. He doesn't have to walk out of a church with the television cameras showing him holding his wife's hand and clasping his bible in his left hand so you can see his wedding ring - all the while demeaning the 'family values' he has preached (and I've used that term very loosely here). I truly do not believe that GWB would ever hurt his wife, marriage, or his Lord and God in the same manner as WJC did. It's possible, but I don't think he ever would. GWB is a true man of faith - meaning a Man of God.



I know - we are supposed to have 'separation of church and state'... ... Separation, maybe - but not total exclusion, as so many want to have it.



I'm very proud that GWB is a professing Christian - and one who is not ashamed to tell it. That, at the very least, makes two of us.



Wayne

 

[Peter Campbell]

Everyone has a choice. It is a disrespect to any adult volunteering for military service that they are "forced". You have choices. Do you pay your mortgage or buy crack. Do you do overtime to pay for tuition or send your kids to flip burgers and dig holes. Last I heard the constitution never gurantees an easy life. I for one would rather economic realities force decisions than a decision maker like al gore out of touch with reality forcing decisions with all the weight of the federal government. At least GWB got a degree on his first run- didn't al gore fail out of seminary school? What branch of the service did al gore join to allow him to make these decisions?

History is full of governments and people that did not put up a fight when needed. That is exactly where they are- in hisory books and dim memory. Go ask the carthaginians about there war preparations- Oh you can't they were all killed down to the house pets a few thousand years ago. Oh but that will not happen in the modern age- Well ask the chinese who stayed in Nanking china when the japanese landed. After the city was flattened the survivors crawling from the rubble were shot. I think a few survived. Saving Bagdad, Saudi arabia, Iran or a US city the possibility of that fate was worth the lives and money expended. In two years with no new mass graves that would have been there had we not acted would prove it.

 

[Sled Puller]

The band Great White killed more Americans in 10 minutes than the entire Iraqi Army.



Sometimes I think the bitter Viet Nam vets may have a hint of jealousy of the New American Warriors.



An all volunteer force, they are better trained, better equipped, than any military in the history of the world, and have had good strong Presidents backing them up, that take care of business, instead of swaying to the tune of polls.



Mogidishu, has been the only thing close to a Viet Nam mess, and was run by a Nam protestor. That makes sense.



They should be at least glad, that our leaders learned a hard lesson in Viet Nam, and set out to win these wars now in swift, overwhelming firepower battles.



Saddam was a threat to the entire world, no matter how you want to look at it.



He is less of a threat now.

Worth every penny.



The anti-american protestors in Iraq now, are not the norm, but will cause trouble no doubt.



Be interesting to see who is backing them, eh?



JConley, thanks for your service, and let every know those scuds were not a threat, according to an above post!! .

 

[sdalton]

Hey JConely, I have a cousin in Kuwait, in the marines. His name is Maj Jeff Kirkpatric. I dont remember what his specialty is but I cant get through to his email. If you can find him, say howdy. He might be in supply. His researve unit was called up from California.

 

[Rman]

Re: Too bad

Originally posted by Champane Flight

Too bad those same kids will still be stealing food out of Humvee in two years from now. Only we will have to probably have to shoot at them to keep them away by then. How many of these scuds took any lives? This anti missile system was in place before the war to? And when did the scud attacks take place? Before we went into Iraq or after? It does take some perspective, does it not. Preemptive strike, or nation/empire building? It still amazes me that we were able to protect the oil, but not the antiquities, and the hospitals. Shows where our/his real priorities lie. What burns my hide is that the higher ups put some little First luey on the hot seat in front of the news media answering questions about why this wasn't done!!!!



All volunteer? What choice in life do you have if you live in the big city, or the small town, or in Podunk? You can go to work for the local factory at just over minimum wage, or maybe try for a school loan. But, for some the military was the only way they could get the education you speak of. I will and always support our troops, but do not ask me to believe in GWB. He has never been in battle, and never will be!



You cannot even begin to compare Saddam with Hitler. There is no comparison. Hitler had conquered half of Europe before we joined the war! Saddam had conquered what? And what happened after that? I do agree there is a time for war. This was not one of them. Another name for preemptive is aggression. I don't feel a bit safer since the sacking of Iraq. If we are this paranoid, the rest of the middle east better arm themselves!

Are you even aware of the billions of dollars your socialistic style govn't for which you must be a huge proponent of gives to students every year? I was fortunate enough to enlist and have the govn't pay for my college. I went to school with many people who did the same, i went to school with many kids who's parents foot the bill. BUT BY FAR AND WIDE, most of the students were there on loans, FROM THE GOVN'T.



Don't give me this crap about no where to go, no jobs, no nothing. Horse ****, you have got to have ambition and determintation. Thanks to socialism and liberal pukes our society lacks that in the biggest way.



I'm intelligent and it wasn't handed to me, i had to work for it. Now why should I have to pay for everyone else not to work for it? I'll admit i took advantage of the system, i made it work for me, I however did not abuse it and suck the govn't tit like most "socialists" do.

 

[Hale on wheels]

What choice do you have if you grow up in a small town other than being forced into military training? Surely you didn't really need an answer to that question. I grew up in a very small town. I CHOSE to put in the needed time to my studies in high school because I CHOSE to go to college and have a good job and a good life. Opportunities abound for anyone that wants to go to school. My parents didn't make that much money, surely not enough to pay all the high costs of college. But they put in a lot, and I got loans to cover the rest, which I am still paying off. Anyone can get a loan to go to school. Some people just CHOOSE to gripe and complain and not go to school because a loan isn't good enough, they want it completly paid for in full, with no responsibility to pay it back. I applaud anyone who joins the military to serve, and I expect that they recieve good training, but that is not their only option.

 

[JConley]

SDalton. . I looked up your cousin, and we are not in the same locatoin in Kuwait. Close, but I dont see myself getting over to his location. Thanks. . It was worth a try. .



BTW CF... Over half of my unit is in College getting there degree. I have a few working on there Masters and one working on a Doctorate. None of them have complained about being here, since they all understood the responsibility and the commitment.



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Deleted direct material calling out another user.

Robin

TDR Admin

04/22/03