FS2500 observations

[steved]

I have a question. What should the oil test numbers be when you need to change oil? Is there a chart on if the oil is still good or a personal preference? I see every one talking about the results but nothing about what they actually mean.

TBN=2 is a "must change" guideline from what I have gathered...



High soot/solids is also another indicator... the oil will become abrasive...



A viscosity increase (usually indicating the oil is full of soot) is another...



And then the contaminants such as fuel/water are also things to watch...



Wear metals are something to watch trends of, to see if there is a problem, but they are in PPM... they may indicate a problem, but they usually won't cause a problem.



steved

 

[jkoplin]

I looked into amsoil. I am glad I did not go with them. First ,I was seeing guys having to mount theirs with make shift ply wood brackets. The FS fits like it was designed to be there, with a super solid mounting bracket. Second the filters they (Amsoil) use are simply tighter oil filters. All that talk of nitrile, and zinc, and all is nice but nothing special. It is all sales doubletalk. It's like saying that your truck has the goods on the competition because you have vulcanized rubber tires, semi metallic brake pads, and a localized use controlled refrigeration unit (air conditioning). Third, they say that you need to use their syn oil to get good results. There is no proof that any oil is really better than the rest. Their filter are not staged. FS filters are. FS has seven stages which get smaller and smaller. your oil has to pass through roughly 1" to 1. 5" of media ( I haven't cut one and measured it, it is thick). That helps keep it filtering for the whole 10-15000miles. a flat piece of media will clog if it is filtering to 98% @2MICRON. then your oil will follow the path of least resistance and go through your standard filter. Negating your 3-500 dollar device. All you really have to do is order a FS2500 to really understand the difference. It is not an overrated oil filter. This thing weighs 25lbs. and the filters are like the ones we use on our TracExcavators, Dozers, and Peterbuilts.

Also, As far as data goes. Data is like a finger print. Each engine has different values in the oil analysis. The only way to really determine what is going on is to build a history on your engine to see what is going on.

I have a few friends that drive Ferds ( poor guys) When they say that their Ferd is better than my Dodge, I tell them that the fact that they are comparing shows which is the superior product. I never say my Dodge is better them their Ferd, cause I don't need to.

Here is a thread of owners praising a product that is helping extend the life of their engine and Amsoil jumps in and says how much better theirs is.

If it was... well...

All I know is that the product from FS is solid, it is living up to all it claimed and their customer service is outstanding.

 

[PRout]

Surely they must have supplied some numbers on that oil analysis you got. . I hope you didnt pay good money just to hear your oil is clean and all tests are "in the green", especially after spending 500 bucks for the filter.

 

[jkoplin]

Will post numbers tomorrow.

 

[ENafziger]

The good and the bad...

Well, my first report came back from Blackstone. The truck is a 2006 Dodge 3500 with 36k miles. I had about 10,500 miles on this sample, running Rotella 5w-40 synthetic, a Donaldson Endurance primary, OilGuard bypass, and a FilterMag on the outside of the Donaldson. About 4,000 miles of this was towing 5k - 8k pounds, and no makeup oil was used.

For some reason, the iron and the lead are unusually high, as is the viscosity. I add nothing to the oil, but do run a mix of Power Service, Marvel Mystery Oil, and Howe's Meaner Kleaner in the fuel. I'm not sure what would make the metals so high, but I'm open to suggestions. Blackstone recommended dropping to a 7,500 mile interval next time.

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Well, that was the bad. The good news, is that it appears the filtration combination I'm using is working very well... at least as well as the average bypass system, and maybe even better than some.

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Again, I'm new to oil analysis, and this was my first sample. Let me know what you think! --Eric

 

[05mxdiesel]

Wow, everything on that report looked exactly like mine with a frantz bypass at 10k on the oil with rotella ci-4 dino, except for the iron and lead. You need to talk with terry dyson with dyson analysis for him to interpret your report and give you some advice. Potassium should drop to single digit numbers soon, but that isn't a problem. What did Blackstone say?

 

[PRout]

Yeah, that particle count looks really similar to what the frantz's are coming up with for around that many miles. Pretty clean oil. . Im thinking the potassium may be an additive of the Rotella oil, but really just guessing so should probably keep the trap shut if I dont know. The Iron & lead may be from towing alot. More physical load on the motor. . Like Gary has said in the past, he would prefer to see a trend and not jump to conclusions from one report. . So far, Im pretty impressed at how well the TP filters clean the oil. Thanks for sharing!

 

[jjack]

Where is the Potassium coming from? Is that not a product of coolant? I dont think the Potassium should be that high.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK - just got back from a week-long RV trip, and found the results of my last oil analysis had arrived while we were gone. The analysis displayed below is with 10,000 miles on Delo CI4-Plus 15/40, and the sample submitted was immediately after another 500 mile RV tow with lots of mountain towing involved - the sample is on oil that's been in the engine for nearly a year, and a wide mix of driving situations, from empty and around town, heavy towing, and both zero degree winter weather as well as 100 plus degree summer use. Several Frantz cartridge changes were involved, and about a quart of makeup oil added to compensate for what the filter element absorbed - there was no actual oil used (consumed) by the engine.



Here's the report, showing the first 5000 miles on the oil, then 10,000 miles on that same oil - the engine has about 55K miles on it:



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And here's the particle count on that same oil:



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This is what I would consider as about average for this oil, my bypass filter setup, and my specific engine - not a "spectacular" report - but a good one on an engine that is now pretty well seated in and worked pretty hard at times in RV towing in mountainous terrain.



The 2 questions to be addressed here are, how will this report compare with others using different bypass setups at similar miles and usage - and how will it compare with the new CJ series of oils that we're having forced upon us?



Every owner is entitled to their own choice and opinion - MINE is that I'm very happy to be using the "old, obsolete" Delo CI4-Plus lube, and the Frantz bypass filter!

 

[PRout]

FYI - changed my username from Shortshift to PRout (for Phil Rout ) since the other one was gettin' on-me-nerves .

Gary, Thats a nice real-life test since that oil has been through the different seasons and operating conditions. Its got a little bit of testing in there for all of us. .

Its pretty consistant with your other reports as well. . Its like they said at Blackstone a while back, "Your oil hardly ever gets dirty". :-laf:-laf Actually, those consistent reports are what I like seeing the most. You can pretty much predict ahead of time how they are going to come out unless something unforseen happens in the engine. . Not much toilet paper in those oil samples.

Anyways, I hope Deb at Frantz knows how well her filters are working. I'd say they do pretty well against the big-dollar stuff also, but it seems like its kinda hard to get actual numbers from them. .

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Anyways, I hope Deb at Frantz knows how well her filters are working. I'd say they do pretty well against the big-dollar stuff also, but it seems like its kinda hard to get actual numbers from them. .

Phil, I would imagine that actual numbers are hard to supply due to the wide variety of TP used, the skill and attention to detail of the user - and several related issues.



Yeah, my reports tend to be pretty uniform - some variations towards lower wear numbers as the '02 has been wearing in - but looks pretty stable now at 50K plus miles.



A big surprise for me, has been that this recent analysis was using the last several filter changes with the Frantz TP cartridges - and they actually seem a slight bit poorer in filtration than the Scott's TP I normally use - not at all BAD, just no better. That's a surprise to me, because the Frantz stuff is more tightly wound than the Scott's - so something in the Scott's must be working pretty well in this application.



Thanks for your comments.

 

[ENafziger]

From what we're seeing here, it seems as if the OilGaurd and Frantz bypass filters show similar results as far as particle count goes. It would be interesting to see some FS2500 and Amsoil numbers thrown in the mix as well. I'm more than satisfied with the performance of the OilGaurd, and the ease of maintenance.

However, I'm slightly uneasy about the high lead and iron in my sample. Gary, I noticed you have a very high Moly count using your Delo, whereas mine is very low using the Rotella. Your truck has ~20k more break-in miles than mine, but I'm wondering if the moly you're using helps with the metal wear?

I had already refilled with Rotella synthetic again by the time I got these results, but I've about convinced myself to go with a higher moly oil next time... maybe Schaeffer's? --Eric

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

From what we're seeing here, it seems as if the OilGaurd and Frantz bypass filters show similar results as far as particle count goes. It would be interesting to see some FS2500 and Amsoil numbers thrown in the mix as well. I'm more than satisfied with the performance of the OilGaurd, and the ease of maintenance.



However, I'm slightly uneasy about the high lead and iron in my sample. Gary, I noticed you have a very high Moly count using your Delo, whereas mine is very low using the Rotella. Your truck has ~20k more break-in miles than mine, but I'm wondering if the moly you're using helps with the metal wear?



I had already refilled with Rotella synthetic again by the time I got these results, but I've about convinced myself to go with a higher moly oil next time... maybe Schaeffer's? --Eric

About a year ago, Chevron started adding Moly and Boron - excellent wear reducing additives - to their CI series lubes - and then relabeled and SAE recertified it as "CI4-Plus". I had already considered the Delo as one of the best available oils for diesels - the addition of Moly and Boron was just frosting on the cake! :-laf



In fact, it was BECAUSE Chevron had so recently upgraded their CI-4 lube, that I personally consider their rapid move to now DROP the CI-4 stuff - and switch to the new CJ-4, that I figure their change was purely the result of dictates forced upon them by the EPA to produce an oil that allowed serious modifications of diesel engines and exhaust systems - engine changes also dictated by EPA. #@$%!



Steady increases in oil analysis reports - such as currently seen on the lead page of the TDR - add to the evidence that the new oils with modified and lower additive content may well prove to provide less engine protection if focused attention to oil change intervals is not followed.



I've run the old CI-4 Delo for 20,000 miles, with recommendation from Blackstone oil analyzers to go ahead and keep running it - the numbers were that good. I seriously doubt I'd get the same advice if using the new CJ stuff...



Will the new engine, exhaust and oil changes be worth the cost and effort?



Time will tell!

 

[jjack]

What is the total charge for Blackstones analysis with the TBN and particle count. From what I can see on the website I figured about $52. Is this right??

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

What is the total charge for Blackstones analysis with the TBN and particle count. From what I can see on the website I figured about $52. Is this right??

Pretty close - I don't have the charge tag in front of me, but I think it ran $55...



Yeah - would be cheaper to just change the oil and filters, and call it good - but sometimes the cost of education (mine and others!) is worth it. :-laf



BUT, even at that, I'm about done with oil and filter testing - what I have and use has consistently proved to be doing the job with flying colors - so I doubt I'll be doing any more - unless a "worthy cause" comes along! :-laf

 

[PRout]

Gary, One thing Ive noticed is I believe we both have recently changed to a different air filter (both using the same one if I remember correctly), and we both have a slightly higher silicone number than previous tests have shown. We just went up to 5ppm which is only a slight difference, but we havent been running these filters long. Thought I would raise the flag on it so we can keep track of it. I happen to believe it is not a problem, but nevertheless going to watch it for a couple more cycles. I do like this air filter so far the best of all the ones we have tried, so hope it filters as well as its supposed to.

Also, I think I may have mentioned that I removed one of the frantz's and am trying an o-ring mod on the center tube to see how the oil is going to look after 5k miles. Its almost at 3k so shouldnt be long now. . Not sure if it is the new Delo, but the oil is definitely staying cleaner visually than before so far. . Oo. Hoping its the o-ring mod that helped. .

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Yes, I also noted the slight rise in Silicon at the 10K sample - my Silicon usually runs at 3ppm - and did the first 5K on that run - while the BHAF was still in place, then rose slightly the 2nd 5K to 5ppm, after the new Donaldson/Amsoil air filter was installed - as high as it has ever been. Even after an earlier 20K test run using the BHAF, my silicon was at 4ppm - so yeah, it's a SMALL increase - but an increase just the same...



Of course, NEW Delo fresh from the jug already registers 3ppm Silicon - part of the anti-foaming additive...

 

[PRout]

Will post numbers tomorrow.

Which tomorrow was that?

 

[steved]

I guess we're never going to see the results...

steved

 

[CUMMINZ]

I hear that AMSOil should have new bypass out in April.