Fuel Delivery Redesign: "Project Number Two"

[rbattelle]

The Aeromotive pump to use is the #11108 Marine pump-- diesel certified.

I emailed Aeromotive months ago (when lmills told me about his leaks) and asked them specifically if P/N 11203 was compatible with diesel. They said "yes".



The 11108 is a nice pump, but it's pressure is too high for unregulated use with a CP-3. Plus it uses -10 ports and I'm currently plumbed for -6 or 3/8 NPT only. And it costs $420.



-Ryan

 

[jwduke]

Ryan, did you see that they make a "smaller" Davco? Did you ever get yours mounted?

 

[rbattelle]

Never did mount up the Davco, but I still have it sitting in my shop. I think I actually do have the "smaller" one, and it's still GIGANTIC! I'm very happy with the Stanadyne, however. It offers numerous upgrade options, it's compact, offers a wide range of filtration options, and filter changes are easy and COMPLETELY MESS FREE!



In other news, last night I swapped out that darn Aeromotive 11203 that was leaking like a seive for a Holley Blue. Since the Holley's flow rate and unregulated pressure are within what I'd consider "good" for a CP-3 inlet (110 GPH max and 14 psi max), I'm running it on a circuit sans PWM-controller. I'm getting 11. 6-12. 0 psi at idle, 10. 8-11. 0 at highway cruise on dirty filters (due for a change in about 100 hours). The Holley is quite a bit quieter than the Aeromotive was, and eliminating the PWM circuit cuts down on the failure points in my system.



JSteiger reminded me why I didn't go with the Holley in the first place - poor reliability reports here on TDR. To cover my rear, I'll buy a spare pump and a rebuild kit.



-Ryan

 

[rbattelle]

Is anyone else out there running an aftermarket filter in series with the stock filter like I am? If you are, what sort of filter change interval are you using on the secondary filter?



-Ryan

 

[Matt400]

Good question Ryan, a fella asked earlier wanting a source for a differential pressure gauge. I would assume he wanted it for for filter monitoring.

It reminded me of my Air Force days when we would change out refueling equipment filters based on DP records.



Wouldn't this approach be better than a mileage interval?

Seems the most cost effective method would be to use 2 sensors and a common (electrical) gauge with a switch so you could toggle between the two and check it once in a while, a DP gauge is nice but expensive plus you cant monitor fuel pressure that way.



DP readings would be different at different flow rates so you would need to establish a baseline with a clean filter possibly at a steady cruise & WOT then change out the filter when you see XX rise in DP. As it traps dirt and even water the DP will rise so when to change? I wonder if the filter manufacture could provide what DP to change at?

 

[rbattelle]

Good suggestions Matt, although they sound pricey. Stanadyne has an electronic filter change sensor listed in their catalog, but I need to phone them for a part number.



I do my fuel filter changes based on engine hours rather than mileage. I change the stock filter every 300 hours. My opinion right now is to change the secondary filter at the same time as the stock filter. My logic for this is that since the secondary filter theoretically doesn't have to worry about particles larger than 10 micron, it shouldn't fill up any quicker than the stock filter.



Now that I'm running a pump at +12v with no speed controller it will be much easier to be able to "read" the FP gauge to determine a filter change time (sender is downstream of both filters).



-Ryan

 

[JohnnyH]

Do you happen to have any pictures of your setup. It may be somewhere in this huge thread, but I dont have hours to look.



John

 

[rbattelle]

Danger!

I disassembled the leaking pump to find the motor housing full of diesel fuel. There's a small spring seal through which passes the motor drive shaft. That seal, which is supposed to keep fuel from climbing the motor shaft, was disintegrating from the fuel. This allowed fuel to pass up into the motor itself.



In my opinion, this creates a very real fire hazard. I'm afraid I don't know whether straight #2 diesel fuel is incompatible with the seal. All I know is that the pump began leaking dramatically about 1 week ago, after 6k miles and 4 months of service. During that time, I was running Stanadyne Performance Formula. Over the last 2 months or so I was also running 2% biodiesel (from a Shell station... not homemade).



I'm now trying to locate a source for replacement seals to see if there are other materials offered in this particular seal.



-Ryan

 

[JStieger]

Over the last 2 months or so I was also running 2% biodiesel (from a Shell station... not homemade).



-Ryan

Isn't biodiesel harsher on certain rubber than regular diesel? Then again, I wouldn't think that 2% is enough to make a difference?

 

[rbattelle]

Today I changed the Stanadyne 2-micron filter element. It had 300 hours on it. My results are "mixed".



I cut the filter apart and found the clean side looks pretty much exactly like the dirty side. That either means that both sides were clean, or that the filter was full up to capacity with dirt. I'm going to change the next filter at 150 hr and see what it looks like.



I have a see-through water collection bowl mounted on the filter. I never drained it in 300 hours of use because the bowl always looked like it had a yellowish tint to it (ie diesel fuel). After removing the filter, I drained the bowl. The liquid that came out looked absolutely clear, which implies (I think) that it was full of water. But I drained it into a jar of old nasty diesel fuel and it never separated out like I would've expected. I do use Stanadyne (which is demulsifying - causes water to clump together). Very confusing. I think for safety I better start draining it with every fuel stop.



Does ultra-filtered diesel fuel loses it's yellowish tint and turns clear. Anyone know? Any opinions?



-Ryan

 

[ThomasLawrence]

I drained the bowl. The liquid that came out looked absolutely clear, which implies (I think) that it was full of water.

You should be able to feel the difference between diesel fuel and water, but if not, just take a small amount of it, and freeze it. If it's water, obviously, it'll turn into ice. If it's diesel, it won't.



-Tom

 

[JStieger]

Ryan-



Is your 2-micron filter after your stock 10-micron?

 

[rbattelle]

Tom - great idea. It never occurred to me to try freezing it. It's too late now, I've already disposed of it.



JStieger - yes, the 2-micron is AFTER the stock filter.



Today I ordered a WIF sensor for the Stanadyne. BTW, it's really nice to be able to add on upgrades to the Stanadyne filter like that.



In addition, I'm in the process of "designing" a fuel collection arrangement so I can collect samples at each fuel stop to check for water. I'll be draining (partially) the water collection bowl at every stop now.



I'll tell you this - if it was water I was looking at, the stock fuel filter just doesn't cut it as a water separator. Or, at least the Stanadyne is WAY better. There was a lot of "water" I drained out, and my stock WIF light NEVER came on (I drain the stock one about once every 6 months).



-Ryan

 

[brods]

Ryan, as always, well thought out and through execution. Enjoyable to read, though I must admit I just skimmed your posts to follow the evolution of your system. Thanks for walking us through your filtration journey!



If I was paying attention, you are running a aftermarket lift pump running at full speed, pushing the fuel through the stock filter and then through a 2 mic filter unit? Is that where it stands now? Does the pump have an internal pressure relief or an internal bypass arrangement?



Have you noticed any driveability differences? Any changes in mpg or anything at all different compared to the stock setup?



Anything that you would change at this point?

 

[rbattelle]

If I was paying attention, you are running a aftermarket lift pump running at full speed, pushing the fuel through the stock filter and then through a 2 mic filter unit? Is that where it stands now? Does the pump have an internal pressure relief or an internal bypass arrangement?



Have you noticed any driveability differences? Any changes in mpg or anything at all different compared to the stock setup?



Anything that you would change at this point?

Indeed, I'm running the Holley Blue "full bore" with no regulation. So equipped, the pump will only provide a maximum of about 14 psi and 110 GPH. I'm seeing a max of about 13 psi at my CP-3, and I figure somewhere South of 100 GPH. I don't think the pump has internal regulation - it simply "runs out of breath" at 14psi/110 GPH.



There have been absolutely no driveability differences, and no change in fuel mileage from stock. Note that my stock system was functioning fine when I removed it.



In terms of recent changes, I have built a new underhood junction box to incorporate 2 upgrades. First, the WIF sensor for the Stanadyne filter. Second, I changed out my double-relay for two single automotive-style relays. The latter change was done to make the system easier to service in the event of a relay failure. As of this writing, I haven't installed the new junction box (lazy).



At this point, the only thing I might have done differently is used hoses that are not nitrile. Nitrile is incompatible with ULSD and biodiesel. But it's hard to find non-nitrile braided stainless hose that will accept reuseable AN fittings.



Link to my site... has the latest configuration.



Ryan

 

[HOBrian]

Ryan, Sweet site!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just place it as a favorite, so when I do my lift pump I have great info to reference.



I was wondering when you are going to offer a kit of your fuel system?? Oo.



Do you do all of this on the weekend?? How do you get all this done and still drive the truck to work??

 

[GCroyle]

Ryan,



Impressive piece of work.

I cannot comment on it's merits or not other than your carefull analysis of the available parts and goals, but that took some doing to put this together. Good luck. Sorry, didn't have time today to read all of the posts to date, I'll catch it a little later.

 

[rbattelle]

Ryan, Sweet site!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just place it as a favorite, so when I do my lift pump I have great info to reference.



I was wondering when you are going to offer a kit of your fuel system?? Oo.



Do you do all of this on the weekend?? How do you get all this done and still drive the truck to work??

Thanks for the compliment, Brian. I enjoy working on my website and hope that the stuff I put out there helps other people at least in some small way.



When do I have time to do all this? I don't know, really. This weekend I spent a couple hours Sunday installing the new underhood junction box I made and part of the Stanadyne WIF sensor kit. I did this mostly because all this recent talk around here about fuel systems got me thinking I need to do some work on mine. I still need to wire up the WIF LED in the cab, then the WIF sensor can get installed at the next fuel filter change (a few months, I think). I spent several hours building the new junction box, but that was over the last few months (a little while here, a little while there, you get the idea).



Remember, I installed my system back in 2005 and have been driving it ever since. Any modifications have been pretty minor since then, so there's no problem getting things done before work on Monday. The original installation in June 2005 took 2 days (started on Friday night, finished Sunday afternoon).



It does seem like I do a lot of stuff, but I find the time by not having a social life!



GCroyle, this thread is gigantic. Unless you feel a need to know every gory detail of the discussion, I wouldn't bother taking the time to read it all. My webpage for the fuel system pretty much describes everything in its most recent state.



On edit -

As for selling this in kit form, I don't have anywhere near the time to make these in any quantity. Besides, I'd rather that people go out and build one themselves rather than my profiting from it - there's already enough people out there trying to profit in the LP fuel system game. Besides, this system is very expensive, mostly because I insisted on Swagelok and Aeroquip fittings, and Amphenol connectors.



Keep an eye on my website... I need to post some pictures of the cab controller and I should get a table of parts up there too.



Ryan

 

[Udaloy]

Well now that I've spent the last two hours reading every gory detail of this thread, I'd like to know the status of your setup. Still running the Holley? Would you do it again? I'm also curious why you didn't see an up tick in mileage when the commercially available systems taught this advantage. Where did your web site go?

 

[rbattelle]

Well now that I've spent the last two hours reading every gory detail of this thread, I'd like to know the status of your setup. Still running the Holley? Would you do it again? I'm also curious why you didn't see an up tick in mileage when the commercially available systems taught this advantage. Where did your web site go?

My website host name changed, so here's the new link:

LP Fuel System



I'm still running the system with the same Holley pump. There have been no changes at all (other than having to go to the Holley pump). Works great.



If I had to do it again, I'd do exactly the same thing except instead of the Holley Blue I'd try the new 12-125 pump. It looks all new and fancy and shiny.



Ryan