G-plus radiator

[Michaelsloft]

When you are older like me (and you) you sometimes find things that don't make sense, that actually work Lol...and if not, I have spent $23 (includes 20% off) Plus I saved my old one if I need it this winter, kinda like a short sleeve shirt for summer and a long sleeve for winter. If it don't help at all, I will post it.

Michael, the #THM 375180

Nick, thanks for the part number....same number as the 180 degree Napa currently in my truck with the Horton EC450 fan clutch that will only activate today when I turn it on manually, even on this HOT day here in the Midwest! Horton is set-up to automatically turn-on at 192 and off at 185 which is where the 180 degree thermostat is fully open. The 180 degree thermostat will start to open at 160 and be fully open at 185. Usually settles in right at 180 on most days....even winter. But the Horton fan clutch is completely deactivated when not operating.....only on or off with Horton. You know how the OEM fan clutch operates! The Napa 180 has good flow when fully open and my truck usually holds 185 without using the Horton fan when towing long grades if I can keep the truck in 5th (1:1) gear and at 50 mph or higher on a hot day. The Horton cools the temperature and rapidly when it is activated!
When I spoke with the retired Cummins engineer on the CUMMINS 800 number tech line years ago soon after getting my Dodge/Cummins he was very emphatic about ISB engine temperature and I remember him stating...."don't operate the engine over 195 degrees". The Horton EC450 has always kept it at 192 or lower and it usually runs around 180 and fluctuates between 180 and 185 with the Napa 180 degree thermostat.

Hope it helps to keep temps under control.

Thanks for the part # and keep us posted.

Michael

 

[GAmes]

When I spoke with the retired Cummins engineer on the CUMMINS 800 number tech line years ago soon after getting my Dodge/Cummins he was very emphatic about ISB engine temperature and I remember him stating...."don't operate the engine over 195 degrees".

That could be because the Cummins head gasket in those days was the weaker version of the two that they sold. There was a constant reminder in those days to get a "marine" HG when leaking gaskets were reported on the forum. Now there is only the marine version. Also note, the normal operating temps on the gauge arc go considerably above 195.

 

[Michaelsloft]

That could be because the Cummins head gasket in those days was the weaker version of the two that they sold. There was a constant reminder in those days to get a "marine" HG when leaking gaskets were reported on the forum. Now there is only the marine version. Also note, the normal operating temps on the gauge arc go considerably above 195.

I have no idea what any of the above you have written means......please translate. The man I spoke with on the phone was an "old timer" for certain. He was very bright, very kind and a fine gentleman that I could tell took great pride in his career with Cummins. I listened to his advise and continue to operate the ISB in my truck accordingly. And with no engine issues after more than 19 years and 255k miles it is safe to stay. It was very good advise indeed.

Michael

 

[GAmes]

Translate? What is so difficult to understand? He was an "old timer", and probably aware of the two grades of head gaskets. The weaker version is what was installed on the your and my engine. Mine started leaking at 195k. Yours might last forever if it is always babied. Then again, it might start leaking next week. Up until my original radiator started leaking I don't recall ever exceeding 190 (the middle of the gauge). The OEM replacement isn't a 3 row core, it is 2 row and didn't last half as long as my original did. None the less, the normal operating temp arc on the gauge goes well beyond the 190 mark. Someone told Dodge that exceeding 195 was OK, maybe a newer generation engineer?

 

[Michaelsloft]

Translate? What is so difficult to understand? He was an "old timer", and probably aware of the two grades of head gaskets. The weaker version is what was installed on the your and my engine. Mine started leaking at 195k. Yours might last forever if it is always babied. Then again, it might start leaking next week. Up until my original radiator started leaking I don't recall ever exceeding 190 (the middle of the gauge). The OEM replacement isn't a 3 row core, it is 2 row and didn't last half as long as my original did. None the less, the normal operating temp arc on the gauge goes well beyond the 190 mark. Someone told Dodge that exceeding 195 was OK, maybe a newer generation engineer?

Respectfully, your writing style is difficult to understand at times. And as you mentioned earlier this thread is about radiators. So I would like to mention that I have learned a lot about radiators reading through this thread and am glad you brought it back. The radiator supply house radiator looks like a quality part and it is especially good to know that the OEM replacement is a 2 row core as opposed to the original being a 3 row core. If and when my original radiator fails I will look back to this thread to go over the information.
I went off on a different subject in this thread (thermostats) when I saw Nick was continuing to have high engine temperatures after putting time, effort, parts and $$$ into his 24 valve cooling system and really had been wondering how his truck was performing in the Summer heat. Hopefully he can get the temps reduced a few degrees since we still have many more weeks of Summer and HOT weather ahead.
Looking forward to more useful information in this thread about radiators and associated cooling system parts.

Michael

Edited due to spelling and a typo.

 

[NIsaacs]

Can't confirm anything yet, but, I hauled 9 yards of cinders on a 40 mile delivery yesterday. Cool day (82) 30 miles is a gradual up hill climb, 1000'. Several short rolling hills pulled hard, about 26k gcw. Never got over 200* so I would guess I lost 10* across the board (surprise lol) what was interesting was I also lost 10* on the transmission temps, that's a plus.

Looking forward to some tougher pulls on some hot days. It might be that my next consideration is EGT's, however, turbo's are complicated for me. I have the Juice set to defuel at 1350* and can hit that in about a 1/2 mile at WOT. I really don't want to mess with a turbo until my stock one dies, other than high egt's it works flawless.

Nick

 

[Michaelsloft]

Can't confirm anything yet, but, I hauled 9 yards of cinders on a 40 mile delivery yesterday. Cool day (82) 30 miles is a gradual up hill climb, 1000'. Several short rolling hills pulled hard, about 26k gcw. Never got over 200* so I would guess I lost 10* across the board (surprise lol) what was interesting was I also lost 10* on the transmission temps, that's a plus.

Looking forward to some tougher pulls on some hot days. It might be that my next consideration is EGT's, however, turbo's are complicated for me. I have the Juice set to defuel at 1350* and can hit that in about a 1/2 mile at WOT. I really don't want to mess with a turbo until my stock one dies, other than high egt's it works flawless.

Nick

Thanks for the update Nick. Staying below 200 is good news. Is the fan clutch engaging any sooner? And makes sense for the transmission temps to be cooler with the engine running cooler. What are the trans temps when pulling hard on short rolling hills?

Michael

 

[NIsaacs]

Not sure on the fan yet, it was such a nice day I had both windows open so it is hard to hear above the wind. The transmission typically takes an all day run at 100* to get to 190, yesterday I never saw over 170 loaded, 160 empty. What is interesting is after about 30 miles of 6th, then about 6 miles of 5th, it will drop about 15*. I was watching it close last week when I hauled some loads to the house. I have a slow county road (50 mph) before I get home so it is just cruising in 5th, once you get out of 6th it cools quick.

Nick

 

[Michaelsloft]

Not sure on the fan yet, it was such a nice day I had both windows open so it is hard to hear above the wind. The transmission typically takes an all day run at 100* to get to 190, yesterday I never saw over 170 loaded, 160 empty. What is interesting is after about 30 miles of 6th, then about 6 miles of 5th, it will drop about 15*. I was watching it close last week when I hauled some loads to the house. I have a slow county road (50 mph) before I get home so it is just cruising in 5th, once you get out of 6th it cools quick.

Nick

I've noticed the trans to run cooler in 5th and it cools quickly once you get out of 6th too. Very interesting information Nick. Post more details as you are able to confirm engine/trans temps in various air temps & GVW's.

Michael

 

[The patriot]

Do you know mashimoto makes a lower temp T'stat?
It's only something like 4-6 degrees lower than factory, but for those loaded heavy in mountains...it may help.

 

[GAmes]

Do you know mashimoto makes a lower temp T'stat?
It's only something like 4-6 degrees lower than factory, but for those loaded heavy in mountains...it may help.

How could it help? The t-stat doesn't limit how hot an engine gets, it only keeps an engine at a minimum temperature. Once the coolant temp reaches that temp the t-stat opens and stays open until the coolant inside the engine drops below whatever temp the t-stat is designed to. The radiator dissipates the high majority of the heat, the rest radiates from the block but that heat loss isn't much in the summer. It will limit how much heat you get from the heater core in the winter.

I've removed the t-stat completely while running a flush chemical through the system. Even on the highway, with no trailer, the engine temp won't get anywhere near 180 with the radiator cap installed and the thermostat removed. The statement
"Engine will run cooler with a thermostat that is cycling proplerly than not having a thermostat at all" is false. I believe the writer confused the t-stat with the function of the radiator pressure cap, to wit;

The radiator cap acts as more than just a "lid" for your radiator; it keeps your engine cool by sealing and pressurizing the coolant inside it. What makes the radiator cap special is that it is designed to hold the coolant in your radiator under a predetermined amount of pressure. If the coolant was not kept under pressure, it would start to boil, and soon you would have boiled all of your coolant away. However, the radiator (or pressure) cap prevents this from happening by exerting enough pressure to keep the coolant from boiling. Normally, water (coolant) boils at 212 degrees F, but if the pressure is increased, the boiling temperature is also increased. Since the boiling point goes up when the pressure goes up, the coolant can be safely heated to a temperature above 212 degrees F without boiling. What makes this important is that the higher the temperature of the coolant is, the greater the temperature gap between it and the air temperature is. This is the principle that causes the cooling system to work; the hotter the coolant is, the faster the heat in it moves to the radiator and the air passing by. So, a cooling system under pressure takes heat away from the engine faster, which makes it more efficient.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/...jQ4NTNfMQRzZWMDc2M-?qid=20070924114432AAXq39i

 

[NIsaacs]

[QUOTE="GAmes, post: 2555178, member: 9494
I've removed the t-stat completely while running a flush chemical through the system. Even on the highway, with no trailer, the engine temp won't get anywhere near 180 with the radiator cap installed and the thermostat removed. The statement
"Engine will run cooler with a thermostat that is cycling proplerly than not having a thermostat at all" is false. I believe the writer confused the t-stat with the function of the radiator pressure cap, to wit;
[/QUOTE]

The above quote is not false. I don't think Michael was talking about just cruising around with a light load/power. If you are not using your radiator/fan/cooling system to full capacity, then yes, no thermostat will run cold. However, if you have more power than the cooling system can control, then no thermostat will run hotter than with one in. Without a thermostat, the coolant will circulate through the radiator so fast that it wont have time to cool. This is only true with a marginal cooling system like we are dealing with. This is especially true with a stationary engine. If a D-8 cat radiator was used in our application, then yes, the engine would never heat up without a thermostat.

Our cooling systems are very complex, when you really think about it. We have a fan clutch, an unknown...direct drive fans are better from a pure cooling stand point. Shrouds, front bumper style, fan speed, water pump speed, thermostats, intercoolers, AC condenser, engine RPM, EGT's...the list goes on.

Nick

 

[GAmes]

There are definitely variables, but I don't buy the restriction keeping the coolant in the radiator longer promotes a cooler running engine.

Stock, the cooling system was not marginal, it was virtually a D-8 Cat radiator. Then I added fueling but didn't have any problems. Then I had to replace the original 3 core radiator. After that I had to drive with one eye on the temp gauge when towing. With the 4 row I think those days are over.

 

[GAmes]

Nick, after a little more research I concede that flow restriction does play a part in keeping the engine cool. I'm not willing to pull a heavy trailer up a steep grade in the summer heat without a t-stat to prove either way. However, my post last night got me to thinking about the last time I checked my radiator cap. I have a tester, so today hooked it up. The pressure my 16 psi cap releases at is 10psi.

 

[Michaelsloft]

Nick, after a little more research I concede that flow restriction does play a part in keeping the engine cool. I'm not willing to pull a heavy trailer up a steep grade in the summer heat without a t-stat to prove either way. However, my post last night got me to thinking about the last time I checked my radiator cap. I have a tester, so today hooked it up. The pressure my 16 psi cap releases at is 10psi.

Wow!! Took a look on research??? Come-on.....maybe a beer or two!!!
Youve got to do more on the road testing! And I'm very dissapointed you are not going to haul a heavy load up a steep grade on a HOT day to prove your point! Or, as you have so kindly mentioned before Theory!!!!
Thank goodness for highly educated, bright and hard working engineers!!!!!

Michael

 

[GAmes]

Yes, and man enough to admit my theory might be faulty. Still waiting for your explanation how a 180 degree t-stat keeps an engine from exceeding 195 degrees. Tell me about towing heavy again, since you have done it so often.

 

[Michaelsloft]

Yes, and man enough to admit my theory might be faulty. Still waiting for your explanation how a 180 degree t-stat keeps an engine from exceeding 195 degrees. Tell me about towing heavy again, since you have done it so often.

Wow! it just never ends and you can't even remember what you say (type). You told me that what I was saying was a THEORY! I can tell you are a good man Sir and most members of this forum are. It also takes a man to know when to stop throwing another stick on the fire!
This variable you keep mentioning has already been acknowledged....

Michael

 

[Michaelsloft]

I did not say this - "how a 180 degree t-stat keeps an engine from exceeding 195 degrees"

Michael

 

[GAmes]

Not in those words, but implied.

At any rate, yesterday I replaced my Cummins t-stat with close to 400,000 miles behind it for another Cummins t-stat. You know, the one designed by those " highly educated, bright and hard working engineers" for the 12 valve 5.9 Cummins engine. My test drive today in 95 degree heat, AC on full blast, 65 mph, resulted with engine temps about 20-30 degrees cooler than I had a few weeks ago in similar conditions. Conventional thinking is the old t-stat wasn't opening fully which restricted the flow of hot coolant out of the engine and higher temps on the gauge. I'm going with that.

 

[Michaelsloft]

Not in those words, but implied.

At any rate, yesterday I replaced my Cummins t-stat with close to 400,000 miles behind it for another Cummins t-stat. You know, the one designed by those " highly educated, bright and hard working engineers" for the 12 valve 5.9 Cummins engine. My test drive today in 95 degree heat, AC on full blast, 65 mph, resulted with engine temps about 20-30 degrees cooler than I had a few weeks ago in similar conditions. Conventional thinking is the old t-stat wasn't opening fully which restricted the flow of hot coolant out of the engine and higher temps on the gauge. I'm going with that.

It was not implied Gary.
Since you can't just let it go, the first thought that comes to mind.
A very wise man once said, "never underestimate the determination of the ignorant".......

Michael