Getrag Woes, revisited......

[MMiller]

Ok guys, this summer I went and re bearing-ed and resealed my factory reman Getrag, that had about 180,000 miles of tire smoking launches, mud up to the rocker panels, truck pulls, 3rd gear tire squaks, and loads up to about 29,000 gross weight. The output shaft bearing had started making noise, because the rollers were flaking off. Caught it before destruction. When I was putting the countershaft together, I chipped one of the new bearings, and I needed the truck bad, so I used the old countershaft bearings as they were fine. Everything ran fine, no leaks, towed the crap out of it, and even drove it to SOP #3 and home with no problems. Fast forward to the Thursday before Christmas. My wife drove the truck, and she is excellent about hearing noises, and noticing problems, better then ANY operator/driver/owner I've ever been around. She commented it was making a new noise. I could not hear it so I let it slide a while. The Friday before Christmas, her durango laid down with a transmission failure about 2. 5 hours from home. I went after her with my faithful 93 and trailer. About 2. 25 hours into the trip there was a loud bang, and I lost all gears but 4th. I limped it into the truckstop knowing we would not be driving it home. I got the trucks home, durango repaired and promptly traded, and the 93 in the garage with the getrag out. I dropped the front countershaft bearing... ... ... ... ... Now tonight I pulled the adapter off the back of the transmission to embark on repairing the getrag, and I found the problem right away. Upon final assembly the shims for the countershaft shifted slightly and got out of the bore, thus changing the preload on the bearings. One shim was off far enough to be pinched by the adapter housing and transmission housing. I really think part of the problem was the fact I could not locate the perfect shims, and used some that were nearly the same diameter, but not perfect.



So in closing, I have boughten through Zumbrota Bearing & Gear a new bearing and snycro set, counter shaft cluster, counter shaft, and input shaft, shim kits, plus the two small snap rings. I need to find the large snap ring as its ruined too. I also recieved a new Con O/flywheel from SBC, and yes its the 13"er. I've also received my transmission temp gauge and mounting pod to hold three gauges, and before summer pulling season, I will probably install fast coolers for added capacity.



I will post pictures up in the near future, as soon as I can figure out how to put them here.



Michael, member of the Getrag Preservation Society.

 

[1stgen4evr]

Well Michael, about all I can add is welcome to the rotten lousy luck gang. Been there and done that a time or two myself. A quarter inch stove bolt about one half inch long cost me a Mack engine a few years back so I know the feeling.



I will check my stuff on the snap ring. That is a bit unique to all the other retainer rings I have run across. I may have one that is not too worn.



When you are setting the rear housing, do you have the transmission positioned on its nose. This seems to make the reassembly a bit easier to control for me. I load the shafts with the transmission on its side so I can just roll the stuff in and not pinch my fingers but I then stand it on its nose.



I will check in the morning.



James

 

[MMiller]

Well, James, I believe I installed the rear housing by just sliding it on horizantially. I did not have a good way to stand it up when I had it out last time, as I did not pull the bell housing off the truck. I think this time I may make a plate to bolt to my workbench with a large hole in it, to stand up the transmission in. I also believe that the shims being slightly too small for the bore hurt me too. I put a small dab of grease on each shim to hold them, but I regress.



I don't know which is better. Me screwing up my own stuff, that I have to pay for, of not screwing up the really expensive stuff I work on every day, that I don't have to pay for. I guess if the screw ups I have happen in my garage, my customers will stay happy.



Let me know about the snap ring. I'm going to call my local power train shop tomorrow and see if they can get me one. I need to get some carrier bearings for the front dana 60 anyway.



Michael

 

[RTRAM]

I have to rebuild/replace my Getrag. I have 175,000 miles and the syncho are going. Everyone else I talk with says go to the NV4500 but you believe the Getrag is better. I cannot locate a rebuilt Getrag, but a shop in town with do the rebuild. There is about $1,000 in cost difference. Why do you believe the G-360 is better?

 

[sdstriper]

You may want to read mysterymans posts on the Getrag vs others. Click on his user ID and search all his posts, can't go wrong reading them.

 

[sdstriper]

Getrag Info

mysteryman Getrag posts, worth reading IMHO.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151380

 

[MMiller]

I don't really think the getrag is better then the NV4500, but on the other hand IMO the nv4500 isn't a huge upgrade. I think the getrag is up to the task backing up a mild cummins, even in some pretty extreme situations. It needs attention, and maintance. If I ever upgrade from the getrag it will be to a 6 speed, probably a NV5600. For the abuse I've put my getrag through, I take all respondsibilty for its demise. I really think if the I would have gotten the shims where they needed to be, my getrag would still be happy and healthy.



These are all opinions of mine, some will differ. I can give you a couple of phone numbers of guys that have lots of passenger time in that old truck, and they will verify that the sachs clutch/getrag combo have held up very well for what I've put it through. I've never had syncho trouble, or bad shifts in this getrag, until I put the gasket under the cover,(mine had sealant when I opened it up) and it won't get another gasket there. I will be putting new syncros in this time though.



A bearing/syncro kit can be had for about $210. If thats all thats wrong with yours. I can pull my getrag in a couple of hours, and put it back in about the same time. Thats on a concrete floor, creeper, air tools, and a good transmission jack. I suppose I had about 4 hours in rebearing my getrag the last time, but it was the first time I had done it, and I was being very careful, just not at the right time. So figure $250 in parts and oil, 8 hours of shop rate, and then decide if the bill is appropriate. Even though I have to redo mine and repair the broken parts, I've still got less then $1000 in it. Then again, my labor is free.



Michael

 

[Philip]

they will verify that the sachs clutch/getrag combo have held up very well for what I've put it through

I know what it went threw on the ride I went with you during SOP2. It was working good then.



Micheal I feel the same way about the swap to a 4500. With the price of the 4500 and upgrading it. I would pay the extra and get a 5600. The gearing is a lot better. I have driven a 6 spd truck.



Before anyone jumps on me. I had a good 4500. By the time I would have gotten done scrounging up the rest of the conversion and upgrading it. I could have rebuilt my auto at least twice for the price of a manual swap. So I left the auto in the truck.



Sorry to hear the old girl droped on you 2. 5 hours away from home. That does suck.

 

[1stgen4evr]

Michael I have about turned my junk over twice and I don't find a snap ring. Certainly seems that I should have one but maybe I let it go previously.



Weighing in on the Getrag issue, I have been very pleased with mine. I put around 480k miles on the original transmission (which I still have and can rebuild with minimum cost). Early on (around 120k) I had the truck towed and it ruined the pocket bearing. That was expensive but because I have machine shop connections, not as bad as for some. In later years I have had the transmission out three (maybe four, at 64 some details are fuzzy) times to reshim. It would still run just like it is with another reshiming but I had a low miles transmission that I swapped out. The spring under the shift stub was broken and the stick would bounce up and down which made me think there was a more serious problem than what actually there was on inspection. Later I will probably put it back in the truck just so as to have the 'original'. I have the original clutch and starter on the untouched engine and over half a million miles now. The Dana 70 failed, but not catastrophicly. I repaired it with salvage parts and the truck is in service now. I don't have it on the front line but I do use it several times a month. That 93 truck has paid for a lot of other things in the past 14 years. I can say for sure that an extra gear (5600)would be very nice but it won't get it cause I would not spend the money.



I know that a lot of owners have gone to the 4500 and are very pleased and if you have run your transmission to destruction, that may be just as cost effective as rebuilding a total destruction Getrag. There has been a couple of problems with the 4500 but if you get the upgraded parts, it seem to be good to go. I am equally sure that if the Getrag is maintained, it will go the distance. When they make noise, they are pleading for attention.



In total, if Dodge had been forthright in the beginning as to what was wrong with the Getrag, and especially if there had been a TDR for owners at that time to get their heads together on, there would be no contest on the transmission issue. Mysteryman's comments were to say the least enlightening. By the time the owners knew what to do for the Getrag, the general reputation regarding the Getrag was very negative. The second gen line was a good time to duck out on the previous problems. So the 4500



And I have said this before as well, the Cummins put Dodge back in business. Not just with their trucks but across the board. Certainly without the Cummins, Dodge trucks would be like International (pickup) trucks--gone. Most of the dealerships around this part of the world were down to nothing.



Good luck Michael



James

 

[MMiller]

I know what it went threw on the ride I went with you during SOP2. It was working good then.



Sorry to hear the old girl droped on you 2. 5 hours away from home. That does suck.

I was being easy on it that day. I didn't want to ruin the new tailgate and leave Bill's Getrag, or James' axles on the pavement behind us.



It was a stressful day, being that far away from home and both daily drivers with broken transmissions.



Do you know how to shrink pics? I took some of the getrag and they are too big for my Reader's Rigs. I once knew how to shrink them, and can't remember. Old age must be setting in.



Michael

 

[Philip]

Send them to me Michael. -- email address removed --



This last year was SOP3. That was the one with Bill's trans in the back. Plus somone smoked some poor little girl out that was mowing a yard. :-laf



SOP2 was the year before. The first one you came to. You took me for a ride after you got your pump worked on.

 

[MMiller]

Send them to me Michael.



This last year was SOP3. That was the one with Bill's trans in the back. Plus somone smoked some poor little girl out that was mowing a yard. :-laf



SOP2 was the year before. The first one you came to. You took me for a ride after you got your pump worked on.

They are on their way. Thanks.



Oh yeah, people have to remind me what I've done when its been over a day or so... ... and for the record, it was not me that smoked some girl mowing the lawn, it was a certain fellow from Missouri, and copilot from Terra Haute, both shall remain nameless for a while. :-laf



Michael

 

[Philip]

Here are 3 of the pic's.

 

[Philip]

Hee is the last one.

 

[PToombs]

AHA! The Missouri/ Indiana connection! You know you can't put those 2 groups together without trouble! :-{}

 

[TWorline]

Another bad thing about the 4500 is if you buy a used one you might as well consider it a core, unless it has had a high quality upgrade for 5th gear & the PO ran the correct oil in it. When I bought my truck 3rd syncro was already gone and 12,000mi later it had a 5th gear neutral. I do have a small trans jack if anybody wants to put one of those 300lbs. NV5600 in!

 

[MMiller]

Thanks Philip.



The first picture is the failed bearing.



The second picture is how I found the shims when I took the adapter off the back of the transmission. Third picture is the shims that were damaged by my goofed final assembly.



The fourth and final picture is of the damaged teeth on the input shaft.



So far I've got it totally disassembled, and been washing parts. All the new bearings I installed are now in need of replacement due to the metal contamination. I need to finish cleaning the case, then get the old bearings off. I'm going to install new syncros, and inspect all the speed bearings I ran into.



Michael

 

[bgilbert]

That looks bad. I don't feel so bad about my gimp 2wd getrag now . Do a good job this time as we all need your input next SOP. I now own that rusty getrag core I opened up awhile back. Not that there are too many good parts in it though.



Smoke? I think I'll drive the rusty 89 next SOP. That way I can put on a better smoke show than that Missouri hillbilly :-laf.

 

[PToombs]

Smoke? I think I'll drive the rusty 89 next SOP. That way I can put on a better smoke show than that Missouri hillbilly :-laf.

Which hillbilly? IIRC, YOU were the one that smoked the poor guy trying to start his truck for pictures! :-laf