Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Good ole hard start!

[SpicyJam]

Little help here before I rip into the engine. Please read my sig below, when everything listed below was installed I had no problem with starting my truck for a month or so. Then the last 3 weeks when it is cold out or the truck sits for a length of time I have a hard start. I have looked over every line, fitting and who knows what else, and can not find a leak. My thinking was fuel was bleeding back, causing the hard start, I still think that, I just can't find it. Any ideas, mind you guys that may want to chime in that don't have a FASS, I have no banjo bolts. Only one line from the FASS to the VP44. One other thing I have noticed is that the wait light, well the grid heaters don't seem to cycle. I have checked the fuse, all seems well, but then again who knows. In the morning before work when I hit the key I am going to feel if the intake is warm before I try to start it, it is suppose to get into the 40's tonight. I am just going nuts and winter is not that far off.

 

[SpicyJam]

OK, I went out this morn to head for work, this is what happened. It's 49 degrees out this morning and the wait light was just a quick blurp on the dash. I felt the bottom of the intake, where the heaters are, cold as ice. I shut the key off and tried again, nothing. So I proceeded to try to start it. Well 10 sec of cranking, nothing. Then hit the key again couple of cranks it popped off for a split sec then died, I cranked again I had fire, I let it idle for a min and shut it off. Waited 5min then hit the key again and it fired right up. So I still think the fuel bleeds away, but where. So here is what I am going to do tonight. I am going to take the fitting that FASS sent me out of the VP44, install that fitting into the fuel filter canister and run my larger bango bolts from the canister to the VP. I am just trying to figure where this hard start is coming from. I don't know if the fuel heater inside the filter housing has anything to with the grid heater cycle or not. I was reading through the manual last night and still am lost why they stopped working. For the last week I have had the Drag Comp off, I have no diesel smell in the oil, just trying to eliminating any place the fuel could be going.

 

[SpicyJam]

Ok, now since nobody is replying to this thread, maybe I can shoot some possiblities out there.



1) Is there something in the FASS that can bad to let fuel return after shut down?

2) The VP44 is on its way out and setting no code.

3) The return valve in the VP is bleeding the fuel back to the tank after I shut the engine down.



So out of them 3 choices what would one think, I am looking for mass consenses... ... ... ... ... ... ..... lol.

 

[Horsepuller]

Well, I am not an expert in the least bit but I have read a tons worth of info on the VP44 and the lift pump. My guess would be the VP44 is going out. Hard starts seem to be a consistent sign. Also, maybe your grid heater isn't working. Is your fuel heated at all since you installed the FASS. And what about the obvious: fuel filter?

 

[Amianthus]

Sorry about waiting so long. I'm thinking you're on the right track by investigating the fass. There are a few things that can cause a hard start condition. One being no LP pressure (duh!). Another being too much pressure. That causes the plungers to lift in the VP and not actuate like they should. At least until high side system pressure is built up. The last one being a failure of the VP. But usually that's accompanied by rough running, code throwing, smokey operation. Not all the time, mind you. But typically, that's the case.



Keep us posted on how it goes. And don't hesitate to ask for help.

 

[SpicyJam]

Amianthus, When I first put the FASS on all went well. I had the fuel system on for 2 weeks and no hard start, then the day before we had dyno day is when the hard start delveloped. Funny thing is that this morning, truck popped right off. Mind ya, that I have not changed anything yet. Although the fuel pressure gauge read before start up was 26psi which is a first. Usally sits 18 to 22. I did talk to Tim on this issue, he was the thinking the VP is bleeding back. He wants to change the valve to see if the spring is shot. No big deal there. Truck is not running rough nor lost any power, can turn on the smoke or leave it fairly smoke free out the pipe. BTW we are all still planning on coming the 11th of Sept, JP is riding with me though.

 

[Amianthus]

I don't think it's the VP. Yeah, the bolt is a good idea. Mine gave me fits, so yours might be doing the same. Honestly though, I think you're making too much pressure for startup. 20 psi is supposed to be the max while running. Even that much can cause a hard start. So I think your pressure is the problem. That's my remote diagnosis. Keep us advised.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I had exactly these kind of symptoms when my batteries were dying. Replaced the batteries and the problem went away. It was much more noticeable when the grid heaters were trying to activate because there is so much more draw on the batteries at that point. I could not tell that the truck was cranking and slower btw - just hard to start.

 

[SpicyJam]

But Steve I don't even see the grid try to cycle. Could be the batteries I guess. Some days are just better than others with the truck. When the motor is hot it sometimes does fine, and sometimes not. I will get it figured out sooner or later.

 

[SpicyJam]

OK, just an update. Sunday I put my stock fuel filter back in. Attached the FASS to the inlet side of the canister, used my 2 larger banjo bolts to get the fuel to the VP, and moved my fuel pressure gauge back the the tapped banjo in the VP. After bleeding the system, truck started right up. Took it out for a drive to see if I could pull the fuel pressure down in 5x5. Pressure stayed at 18psi through the violent gear shifting. I was very happy with the out come of that.



Now while taking into what Steve said about the batteries, I gave them a look. I must still have the original ones on the truck since I have never changed them and have the green eye quick check. Passengers side battery the ole green eye is bright as can be, the drivers side, well I wipped off a clean lens hoping it was dirty. No green eye looking back at me on that one. Have not changed batteries yet, but will be tomorrow. This morning same ole same ole, HARD START!



Although not discouraged since I know I have at least one dead battery, I was happy with the thought that I now have 2 filters on the truck, the sending unit is back under the hood of the truck instead of being on the FASS under the truck box. My fuel heater is hooked back up and the water in fuel sensor is also hooked up. Having fuel pressure to 3500rpm was a relief, was just worried that putting back on some restrictions may hamper the fueling of the truck.



Tomorrow when I get the new batteries in I will have an update on what those results were.

 

[GKarpen]

I have the same problem. Installed FASS, removed OEM filter everything was fine. until I got down to half a tank of fuel. then hard start. Fill it back up and everything is fine. I did this four times to confirm. I installed a Westach electric and DiPricol mechanical. Pressure is within one pound of each other. When below a half tank, truck has no fuel pressure. I installed a remote lift pump relay and was able to jumper the relay to run the pump. No pressure was ever obtained. I have been burning off fuel and yesterday I took the input line marked "T" of the FASS and ran it right from a 5 fallon container. Bingo, pressure back to normal. This leads me to believe it is the tank module. Everything else has been replaced including putting the OEM filter unit back on.

 

[SpicyJam]

OK, now this is getting old. Yesterday I replaced both batteries. As soon as I got them both in I hit the key, mind you the truck was just shut off and hot. Switching batteries took 10min. When I hit the key truck fired right up, I shrugged my shoulders and went in the house. Now this morning, same ole crap, full tank of fuel, and harder than ever to start. Although I did notice the grid heaters were cycling, so that is something new. So now I all have left to check is the valve in the VP and the FASS itself. Sooner than later I am going to find this mystery hard start.

 

[TurboTweaker]

Jim,

I hope mine doesnt do the same crap when i get it back. but if it does i know what to rule out. keep us posted.



The Fat "drops-a-lot" Kid

Andy

 

[SpicyJam]

I doubt it will, look at Kevins. He has had no probs. Plus I still have to look at injector lines closer, somebody who may not know there own strength may have cracked a line while installing somebodys injectors. Don't worry Fat Kid, I won't let anyone know it was you. :-laf

 

[R D Brown]

Have you tried lowering the fuel pressure to see if that makes a difference? I have noticed mine is a little harder to start sometimes and my pressure is about 20 lbs with the FASS and with the other pump it was around 12 lbs and always started just fine. I have read in past posts that the higher pressure makes for hard starting. I do seem to be having a fuel pick up problem after the FASS was installed. I am running out of fuel with about 10 gals left in the tank. I don't know if it is FASS related though. This is the first time I have let the tank get that low.



RD Brown

 

[GKarpen]

SPICYJAM: If you think it might be the fuel lines, disconnect both the supply and return. Blow air through them to make sure they are clear, although I would put the other end in a bucket so as not to blow the diesel all over the place like I did on the 1st one. 2nd: Plug one end and use a vacuum pump, brake bleader, I have a hand one, and go into the other end and see if the line will hold a vacuum. It if does for more then a few seconds there are no holes in the line. I am still waiting for tank straps and the tank module $400. 00 from Dodge so I have not dropped my tank for inspection on the inside. I still need the truck for use. I ordered extra female flares from FASS and when they come in I am going to put a hose down the fill tube of the tank. If pressures and volumn return then this proves my problem is the tank module in the tank. Normal fuel pressure in around 14 Psi. I have the weakest spring installed in mine and this is what the pump maintains provided I am above a half tank under all conditions and I have a lead foot.



R D Brown: I hope I am saving you some time on trouble shooting as I normally run my tank down to a few gallons since I took delivery of the truck in October of '98 and did not have a problem till I installed the FASS. At this point I think it is either algae or a rusted pickup tube in the tank module. I live in the rust belt and the pickup tube exiting the tank was rusted badly. I had to use a different quick connect as the one shipped with the FASS would weep because of the rust. In the old days all they did was put the hose directly to the tube with a hose clamp. Those quick connects just lead to problems if you mess with them and their rusty. I am going to change my return line to 3/8" and remove these quick connects when I do the tank.

 

[SpicyJam]

When you get your fuel module for your tank you see that it is all plastic, no more metal line to rust. That is the way mine is. So far I have not had an issue with running the tank low, have been as low as 3 gallons left and no issues. I will try the line trick, why I didn't think of that I don't know since I have a nice vacum pump. Thanks GKarpen, give it try over the weekend. I still am leaning toward a bad valve in the VP, or too much pressure at start up, look over the lines, but I am going to rid any possiblity before I change the VP.



Just a quick update. I just read what Brad has told me to do with the FASS to possibly check to see if pressure is too high at start up. I will give this a shot Thursday morning and keep letting people know what is going on. So I may not be checking injector lines just yet. Pulling a fuse vs pulling lines seems easier in my book... ... ... ..... lol.

 

[GKarpen]

SpicyJam: Thanks for telling me about the tank module. I will look @ this thread again on Monday the 16th. Good luck.

 

[SpicyJam]

OK, I was itching to give the FASS a rule out. Thinking that maybe just maybe, the pressure of the FASS was unseating the 3 plungers in the VP and after cranking a few times when pressure is achived on the high side the plungers would reseat then fire the truck.



Well after talking to Brad from FASS for a half an hour he suggested pulling the fuse from the wiring harness of the FASS. So since the truck has now been sitting for 6 hours I gave it a try. Hit the key with no power to the FASS figuring the truck may start right up. Nope, only after 10sec of cranking did it fire, just like always. Shut the truck right down again, installed the fuse and hit the key again, popped right off. Waited 10 min hit key again popped off again. Waited 1 hour, hit the key popped right off. I already know that in the morning the truck will be a hard start again.



So now we are down again to injector lines and the valve in the VP. Actually this is getting to be kind of fun, well as long as I eventually find the problem. Hopefully before the snow flies. The next to do thing is check the return valve on the VP. Then the lines, probably do both at the same time. Then if I still have a problem well it will be time to just shoot it and start all over.



What bites is that I will be working on a set of twins and fire ringing the truck soon, so that is all on hold until I find this start issue.

 

[TurboTweaker]

spicy,

when did you put your tank guts in??? :-{} and i didn't tighten your lines the last time they were monkied with. i have no clue where you could find a valve for your VP. And by the way the fat kid knows his own strength, not much.



The Fat"drops-a-lot" Kid

Andy