Hard starting

[Darkbloodmon]

So things have gotten worse. I really can't complain, 350,000 miles and very few engine issues. It is back to hard starting almost as bad as before. Haven't phased the pump yet, but I doubt that will help. Had to crank it 30 times yesterday to start it. Also, I am noticing very rough engine at idle. So I suspect injectors, correct? Where is the best place to get injectors at an affordable price? Not looking for extra high performance, just back to normal. Also do I need to replace the tubes as well? I assume I need a 1/4" drive torque wrench, anything else? Injector puller?

And will I be able to do it from above without removing the engine or mounts? I have seen videos on removing the valve cover, looks like that can be done without removing mounts. Please let me know, starting is getting very scary.

thanks
bill

Are you having any different symptoms of hard starting than before you replaced the cp3?

BBI injectors You can pull the injectors and tubes with basic hand tools, just be gentle. You will need new tubes as they are married/crush fit to injectors.

It's a valve cover job, not sure why engine mounts need to be removed. You do have to remove one of the rocker assemblies per cylinder I forget which (intake or exhaust). I did mine in a few hours maybe 4-5 tops, first time for me, but I followed my service manual procedures to the T excluding specialized tools.

I'm running BBI stage 0.1's they're as stock as you can get. I paid 2800 or so for mine a little over a year ago they came with a deal on new tubes. Order directly from their site, US distributors will mark them up a good bit.

I would degrease and pressure wash your intake manifold shelf before starting the job to clean the work space and to detect leaks afterwards.

 

[Ozymandias]

New tubes are optional.
I did not use new because the old ones were stock, first time pulled and in mint shape.

 

[jghflys]

It is back to hard starting almost as bad as before.

Did you pull the FCA connector as before to see if it starts?

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Did you pull the FCA connector as before to see if it starts?

He didn't specify if he replaced with a new or reman pump. If you have to pull the FCA on a new pump you've got other issues. Reman would be something to look into and check pressures.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

New tubes are optional.
I did not use new because the old ones were stock, first time pulled and in mint shape.

Sounds like a sure fire way to end up in a warranty dispute over what caused the failure. The tubes are not reusable or re-serviceable, The edge filter inside the tubes cannot be cleaned out. No reputable shop will replace an injector without a new tube because of comebacks and failures. It's not an upsell; it's just not worth the risk of damage or the time.

You can do what you want to your own truck and cut corners but the fuel system shouldn't be one for advise like that. We all scream from the hill tops for BBI injectors over any other brand because everyone knows someone or has heard of someone with a bad experience with subpar injectors trying to save a buck.

You wouldn't use an old oil filter or fuel filter except for emergencies so why re-use an old tube with an edge filter?

 

[BigPapa]

New tubes are optional.

The tubes are not reusable or re-serviceable, The edge filter inside the tubes cannot be cleaned out. No reputable shop will replace an injector without a new tube because of comebacks and failures. It's not an upsell; it's just not worth the risk of damage or the time.

I have to agree. Reusing the tubes on the 2nd Gen VP44 Injectors is ok, just make sure to use new o-rings, but on the HPCR system they need to be replaced as DB stated. Nothing to do with seating on the injector. We replace them every time we replace an injector on a bus.

 

[william lopoulos]

Do new o-rings come with the injectors? It is strange that it OK when I installed it, but got progressively worse. It is a remanufactured pump. Do you think the pump is bad?

 

[BigPapa]

Do new o-rings come with the injectors?

I can only speak to Cummins parts, but yes, Injectors come with seals and o-rings and the Tubes come with o-rings.

 

[cerberusiam]

I would go with BBI remans as you get the best of the best in setup and meticulous Q&A.

Yes, if those are original you need new cross over tubes. The tubes have edge filter sin them that will deform due to pressure and plug over time from just pressure or ingested FOB. In addition they have a limited crush point and once they get there any more could rupture a seam from just the crush or extended time at pressure. General rule is new injectors, new tubes unless you have replaced them lately. Even if they are relatively new tap the threaded end firmly on a clean hard service and look for ANY crud coming out of them and replace even if relatively new.

You can *usually* do injectors with hand tools. A good pry bar will usually pop them loose if you work side to side, though, I have had a couple it took an injector puller and tension and tapping the body with a small hammer to get them to come loose. High mileage injectors are always suspect at being stuck, an injector puller sometimes is the only way to get it done. The tube puller is handy have also as it gives better purchase to pry them out. If you are replacing them no big deal but they can be a pain to get out like injectors at times.

Your best tool investment will be a top side creeper to allow easily working in the engine bay. Your back, legs, shoulders will thank you. #5 and #6 are apain no matter how you do it but a top side creeper beats laying on the engine.

A couple of things on install NEED to be addressed or you may be back under there again. Check all of the rial lines closely when removing and use a backup wrench on the tube nut. Watch and make sure the line does not twist much when loosening, you may have to work it loose\tight a couple time to get the coupler loose. If you have to do ANY twisting or the lines are showing corrosion or peeling invest a new set of lines. I guarantee the NEXT time you will have a mangled mess of line to get loose and replace.

BEFORE installing new tubes make sure you thread the tube nuts all the way in by hand easily. If they do not threa din easily the TQ will not be right and you will be back resetting for a no\long start problem. When you install put several drops of light oil on the nut threads to get correct TQ.

You will some bore brushes to clean up the injector bore. Can almost guarantee they will be dirty and need cleaning. Brake Kleen works really well to break up deposits and a good stiff bore brush should get it clean. Blowing out with air after cleaning is a must or stuff can stay in the bore.

Correct install procedure is critical, if you do not follow it there will be issues now or later. If you need the procedures I can provide.

You might consider replacing both of the VC gaskets at this time unless it has been done.

 

[jghflys]

If you have to pull the FCA on a new pump you've got other issues.

Literally takes less than 1 minute to do, costs nothing, and is an important troubleshooting step.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Literally takes less than 1 minute to do, costs nothing, and is an important troubleshooting step.

My point is assuming a known good and taking it out of the equation of diagnostic procedures. It can only tell you so much. You would need to be looking for holes in your system if you can't fire off at max output pressure from a CP3 all other things excluded.

 

[william lopoulos]

I pulled the FCA connector and it started only marginally better. So does that point to injectors or a bad rebuild on the pump?

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I pulled the FCA connector and it started only marginally better. So does that point to injectors or a bad rebuild on the pump?

Can you verify the pump cranking pressure like you did with the old pump? Try with and without the FCA.

 

[cerberusiam]

If it was low CP-3 pressure it would start a LOT better with the FCA unplugged or you would see some obvious performance issues with the installed CP-3.

I would check rail PRV to make sure it is not leaking constantly, but, with the mileage you are at, 230k right?, I would just go ahead with injectors if the rail PRV tests good.

 

[william lopoulos]

Interesting results, pulled off the FCA connector, truck started up OK too fast to read the cranking pressure. Put the connector back on, same thing! What the... for the next few days, truck would start OK, then not. Then over the weekend, started REALLY hard and was idling really rough and cycling, vrrOOM, vroOOM, etc. Started to suspect bad contact on the FCA. Just cleaned the connector plug on the harness with deoxit, then has a REALLY hard time getting it back on. Did get it back on, truck started OK.

Still need to phase the pump, will do when I can. But I am now wondering if some of the problems are due to a dirty contact on the FCA harness connector?

More investigation needed

Thank you

 

[Darkbloodmon]

But I am now wondering if some of the problems are due to a dirty contact on the FCA harness connector?

Which company remaned the CP3? Do you know if they use a new FCA? Do the contacts on the FCA side look good? I have a known good new FCA on my old pump with a year if that on it. I don't mind mailing it out no charge if you want to try it.

The new pump I have uses a 6.7 FCA so I wouldn't be able to use it as a spare anyways.

 

[william lopoulos]

I bought the rebuilt unit from XDP Diesel and it looks like they got it from BD Diesel, at least that is who processed the core. Are they reputable? It came with a FCA, it at least looked new. I did not move over my FCA. I was suspecting that the connector on the harness had corrosion. I have only started it once so far, need more starts to see if it was a problem and still need to try phasing the pump.

Do you think I have a bad FCA or that they did not change the FCA?

thanks

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Do you think I have a bad FCA or that they did not change the FCA?

Can't hurt to ask BD Diesel about their rebuild process and what gets reused or replaced. It'd be quicker to ask than to try to decipher the date/mfg codes on the back of the FCA unless anyone knows off the top of their head?

Looking back through the thread you did mention you deal with high corrosion in the NE. If you get consistent starts without issue post cleaning the connector i'd say you're fine.

from BD Diesel, at least that is who processed the core. Are they reputable?

I just know they're a pretty big name in the diesel aftermarket, I've not personally used any of their products so I can't speak to them; maybe someone else can chime in?

 

[william lopoulos]

Got a reply back from BD Diesel, they replace the FCA. Need to phase pump and do more testing

 

[william lopoulos]

Got another reply and they recommend that I check the return flow rate. I'm sur there are instructions to do that?

thanks