Helix cams

[GiesJ]

Fishin Guide -

How do you like the 12v Lift Pump? What pushed you over the edge to do the cam? I guess I'm asking, how much benefit did you see in getting the cam to run the 12V lift pump?



I am on my 5th (yes five) VP44. Would like to hook the COMP back up but leary of doing so until/unless I address the lift pump issue. Is this a good solution for me or a little spendy for this sort of fix? Also, what elevation are you at? I will be back home eventually and wondered how the Helix did at ~7200'.

Thanks for all the good info in this post,

J

 

[Fishin Guide]

Fishin Guide -

How do you like the 12v Lift Pump? What pushed you over the edge to do the cam? I guess I'm asking, how much benefit did you see in getting the cam to run the 12V lift pump?



I am on my 5th (yes five) VP44. Would like to hook the COMP back up but leary of doing so until/unless I address the lift pump issue. Is this a good solution for me or a little spendy for this sort of fix? Also, what elevation are you at? I will be back home eventually and wondered how the Helix did at ~7200'.

Thanks for all the good info in this post,

J

I actually love the pump. pressure never wavers and I am pulling fuel throught he stock pickup and lines to the point under the cab. From there, it all goes to -6AN. Don provided all the adapters and fittings to make hookup a snap. I can now say that I have at least enough fuel pressure to keep the VP happy. I don't know if it will protect it any better than before, but I feel better about a mechanical pump.



Regarding the cam performance, I saw immediate gains in driveability. First of all, my truck would nose over and get really hot! Too much fuel and way too much back pressure. After the cam install, it would continue to rev and build power until I lifted my foot. This is all seat of the pants. But, the WOT temps dropped 300 degrees. I attribute that to reducing the pumping losses in the stock cam. So, if you had a bigger turbo than I did (PDR#35-12) you may see less drastic temp changes. But it was a big deal for me. Also, spool happened sooner and smoke was cut down by a bunch. Since those things are subjective, let's just say it made me happy. Although it was harder to smoke a tailgater at hiway speed.



I had my truck up to about 6500ft a few times towing a small trailer. temps before the cam would get hot with the box off or level 1. After the cam, I could easily run level 3 to the mat and level 5 if I lifted before 2500rpm in drive or OD. It was smokey at elevation, but spool was much faster than the stock cam.



Is this the right fix? I guess it all depends on what sounds right to you. I had lost faith in the stocka nd afermarket electric pumps and setups of the week. The things that always stuck in my paw was the fact that 12valve trucks did not eat lift pumps like I did. 5 in all.



So, it was in the process of researching my options I decided a cam was the answer. I actually did the cam for the 12Valve lift pump. Nothing else. Any benefits I got from the swap I considered gravy.



So, I did not expect alot, but got way more than I could have imagined. I think the ultimate fuel setup on our trucks is the cam and 12valve lift pump. But that's just my opinion and others will vary. I can respect that. You have to ask yourself al the hard questions about what your motivations are. I did not do this to protect my VP. I did not do it for the claimed improvements in spool, EGTs and smoke reduction. I did it so that i would not have to have another junk pump on the side of the block.



If I can answer anymore questions fire away or drop me a PM. It's fun to talk about products that blow your socks off!



Dave

 

[GiesJ]

Fishin Guide -

Thanks for taking the time to share your info. I really like the idea of a cam. I'm near Jetpilot now while on the east coast and think I am going to talk to him about this as well. The install would be beyond me but I sure would like to watch/help.



The comp is important to me because I like the adjustablity on the fly. The SMARTY intrigues me, but I like being able to kick it up a notch or two right NOW.

I think you are correct that another electric supply pump is not the ideal answer.



What edms are you running?

Did you dyno before/after cam?

You mentioned that you did not do this to protect your VP. With your wire tapped, have you done anything else to protect it??

Thanks again for all your insight,

J

 

[Fishin Guide]

Fishin Guide -



What edms are you running?

Did you dyno before/after cam?

You mentioned that you did not do this to protect your VP. With your wire tapped, have you done anything else to protect it??

Thanks again for all your insight,

J

Currently M4's. Soon to be larger.



I have done nothing else to or for the VP. I do run fuel additive on occasion.



JetPilot is a first class guy. I think you are in good hands.



Dave

 

[SRadke]

Here is a link for distributors-

http://www.f1diesel.com/contacts.html



I tried emailing Rip as he is closest to me but the email wouldn't go through.

Rip's email has been changed. His new address is rip@sourceautomotive. biz

 

[JCutter]

What kind of psi are you getting out of the 12v lift pump Fishin Guide

 

[Fishin Guide]

What kind of psi are you getting out of the 12v lift pump Fishin Guide

Unregulated, over 30 psi at idle. Regulated, 22 psi at idle, near 30 psi at 2000 rpm WOT.



Dave

 

[JCutter]

Thats BEAUTIFUL !! Just what i want.



Thanks Dave







Jeremie

 

[Froadin]

I would much rather do a cam swap and get the fuel pump, then spending almost the same amount and just get an electric fuel pump.

What I don't get is the cost of those valve springs. They are nothing compared to some I have in my other engines.

One thing about the fuel pressure, I remember II saying that 13. 5 psi was perfect. And if you vary by too much, either way, can damage the steel disc in the VP.

 

[GiesJ]

One thing about the fuel pressure, I remember II saying that 13. 5 psi was perfect. And if you vary by too much, either way, can damage the steel disc in the VP.

I wondered the same thing, FG - you aren't worried about 22-30 psi? Also, how do you 'regulate' it?

Thanks again!

 

[Fishin Guide]

I wondered the same thing, FG - you aren't worried about 22-30 psi? Also, how do you 'regulate' it?

Thanks again!

I would never say that anyone is wrong about fuel pressures, but I really question that one if it's from II.



I know many guys that have run in excess of 20psi for well over 100K miles. Was that harder on the pump than 12 psi? I don't know. But I do know this, my overflow is wide open and flowing the maximum amount of fuel possible through the return line. And even then, I still have pressure to spare. Is it right or wrong? I don't know. I remember Keith from DD saying that they have done a ton of cam swaps with a 12 valve pump running in excess of 50 psi. No reports of early VP death. Like all things, I think too much of something could be bad. But where is the line drawn?



My regulator setup uses a "T" for lack of a better description. Basically, I run fuel into and out of a block and I have another port tapped for a 12Valve overflow valve. By shimming the spring, I can make the pressure anything I want. The excess returns to the tank via the factory return line at the rear of the head.



I cannot take credit for figuring that one out. One of the guys at Piers did it to regulate another BOMbers truck and I stole the idea to put into use on my own.



So, I have no hot starts, instant fuel pressure and I am pulling the gauge next week in favor of a light. I have that much faith in the system.



Dave

 

[Hohn]

Fishin Guide -
Thanks for taking the time to share your info. I really like the idea of a cam. I'm near Jetpilot now while on the east coast and think I am going to talk to him about this as well. The install would be beyond me but I sure would like to watch/help.

The comp is important to me because I like the adjustablity on the fly. The SMARTY intrigues me, but I like being able to kick it up a notch or two right NOW.
I think you are correct that another electric supply pump is not the ideal answer.

What edms are you running?
Did you dyno before/after cam?
You mentioned that you did not do this to protect your VP. With your wire tapped, have you done anything else to protect it??
Thanks again for all your insight,
J

Use the Smarty, then just add a TST box. More power? Kick on the TST and it's there. It's the best of both worlds.

 

[Froadin]

II saying the 13. 5 psi thing was just recently in another post.



I also heard that II is working on making a 12V pump setup, complete, for 24v motors with the cam gear.



Now that I have the HR VP44, my temps went up, and I really want to protect this VP, and most electric setups are just not what I want.

I figure that a turbo plus FASS(Rasp, etc), add up to about $1400 to $1800 real fast.

A cam and 12v pump setup with big lines, about $1100. And this still leaves room for bigger injectors/turbo later, while still being able to keep my exhaust brake.

 

[Fishin Guide]

II saying the 13. 5 psi thing was just recently in another post.



I also heard that II is working on making a 12V pump setup, complete, for 24v motors with the cam gear.



Now that I have the HR VP44, my temps went up, and I really want to protect this VP, and most electric setups are just not what I want.

I figure that a turbo plus FASS(Rasp, etc), add up to about $1400 to $1800 real fast.

A cam and 12v pump setup with big lines, about $1100. And this still leaves room for bigger injectors/turbo later, while still being able to keep my exhaust brake.

I take it to mean that they are working on a camshaft that wil allow use of a pump?



IMO, the 13. 5/ 14 psi thing is way overrated. Most come to the conclusion that this pressure is "best" because of where the overflow valve opens. I guess we'll see as these trucks continue to accumulate miles in the real world, not on a test bench somewhere.



I still feel that a bit higher pressure, good filtration and good fuel do more to preserve VPs than any other factors. But I don't have an expensive machine to support by selling parts and services either.



And there is no magic bullet for the VPs. My dad lost his at 50K, completely stock and 13 psi. Obviously, fuel pressure alone is not the answer or a 100% fix.



Personally, I would rather bypass more fuel than I need to help keep the heat moving out of the case. Is that better? I dunno. But I feel better about it. And in the end, it what makes sense to you. Everyone has various opinions on this subject. And while I am not saying that II is wrong. I also am saying that they may not be right. Who really knows? And who's word do you take for it? Proven examples over thousands of vehicles? Or from a vendor that makes a living from the parts you buy? This does not suggest anything dishonest, but it is to say that us salesman types are self serving. We all sell the things that put food on our table. That's why there are no other choices when you are talking to various vendors.



Do lots of research, make a decision based on as much info as you can and know that you made the best decision for your application.



Dave

 

[Froadin]

Oops, I wasn't very clear on that. Sorry.

II is working on a 12v pump setup that will work on the 24v engines. It will have lower pressure to closer match what they feel the VP44 requires.



I feel that you are partially right, and that II is right, but clear enough.

Too much pressure is fine, as long as the bypass actually works well enough to keep the internal pressure low enough. I would say that your return lines are good enough, as will be most people's evidently, to flow all the extra fuel back to the tank. But there will be some cases where you are putting 50 psi to the VP44, and the return lines can't handle that much flow, so the bypass has too much restriction, which causes excessive pressure on the VP itself. This wouldn't normally be the case where it would cause THAT much extra pressure to actually cause damage (unlike not having enough pressure). The last bad thing about pumping too much fuel is that you are going to eventually heat up ALL the fuel in your tank, and it will no longer be able to provide the cooling. Where as if you only pump the needed fuel (plus some for safety), it will take much longer to heat the same amount of fuel. Add in a fuel cooler, and you might be able to keep it from ever happening.



I honestly think that a 12v pump on the 24v engine is a great solution, that just needs a little tweeking to make it just right. FG, you obviously have a setup that works very well for you. And I figure I will have something similiar to it when I am done. Although I am seriously considering a change in the return lines to allow a much higher volume, and much lower resistance. This should help keep the VP44 cooler as well.



And people seem to forget about fuel quality. It sucks. And our little fuel filter really isn't good enough to protect the VP44, especially when we start pushing them. Stepping up in our filtering department will definitely help out our engines and the VP.

 

[Fishin Guide]

Oops, I wasn't very clear on that. Sorry.

II is working on a 12v pump setup that will work on the 24v engines. It will have lower pressure to closer match what they feel the VP44 requires.

QUOTE]



So are they working on a cam to make that pump work? You gotta have something to drive it.



Dave

 

[Froadin]

No, just a normal cam with the 12v gear lobe, just like you have.

Same as I will be getting, the Helix 2.

As far as I know, they are only working on a version of a 12v pump, like yours, but changing the pressure (I guess, wasn't told much about this part). Then adding a big line kit to go along with it.

 

[Fishin Guide]

No, just a normal cam with the 12v gear lobe, just like you have.

Same as I will be getting, the Helix 2.

As far as I know, they are only working on a version of a 12v pump, like yours, but changing the pressure (I guess, wasn't told much about this part). Then adding a big line kit to go along with it.

Oh, I see. Sorry I didn't get it.



I did try a different 12Valve pump that made around 12 psi at idle. Unfortunately, I could pull the gauge to 0. There just was not enough volume to keep up. I would think some type of bypass will still be needed, but it would be interesting to see.



Dave

 

[JCutter]

what pump are you running FG.

 

[RADdodge]

Question?

If and when a 12v mechanical pump fails, would an aux electric pump be able to pass fuel, i. e. , can fuel be pumped through a broken mechanical pump? How does a mechanical pump fail (rare I suppose)?



I've been interested in a mechanical fuel pump setup but went to the trouble of adding a pusher pump with filter some time ago. A couple of years ago there was a lot of interest in the pusher and it has some benefits. I have a gauge that tells me if the primary filter is too restrictive (30micron), a heater, auto bypass valve, easy access for maintenance, etc. I also control the pusher with a switch and ended up leaving it off most of the time because of talk that I might be damaging the VP with too much pressure. Who knows! I was getting about 17psi with the pusher and was thinking of getting a lower pressure Carter to reduce the pressure. But like Fishin Guide said, besides the 12v fuel pump, there are the performance benefits of the cam. Seems like the way to go, but I'd rather not give up the pusher - would seem like a nice emergency fallback if it could pump through a failed 12v pump.