Help on radiant heating UNDER tile systems

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If you use an electric system be very careful when putting in the tile that you don't scratch or cut any wires. Personally I would prefer a water system myself as electric tends to be expensive to operate.
 
If you do get the electric one, have a polarity tester on both ends of the wire to be sure you don't have an open in the circuit.
 
I have installed two Warm Tiles in bathrooms for a client. Both had the wire that you run back and forth into clips or tracks. Running just a wire rather than a mat helps put heat were you want it. Also you can run it in odd size or layout rooms. After you finish installing the wire, you check the resistance of the wire to make sure you don't have a shorts. Then you float the floor with self leveling mortar prior to tiling. Again check resistance then tile.



The Warm Tiles had a programmable thermostat with a sensor that is also placed into the floor prior to floating. For a small bathroom it costs about the same as a 100 watt light bulb to run. It will not heat the room, but it give the feeling of warmth by heating your feet. So far my client loves it and would do it again. She has had it for over six months.



Cary:cool:
 
c-n-c is right on, thats how I do the heated floors as well. I wont do one without using the self level material. Plus, it makes for a very nice flat level floor too. I regret not doing it in my own basement when I tiled it 5 years ago.



BTW, those mats suck, I hate them. I only use the wire on a spool its the ONLY way to go.
 
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hamm, yes, the Suntouch Warmwire is the exact same stuff I use. Wouldnt use anything else, great product and thier customer service is top notch.



The kits are VERY easy to install and the biggest issue is just making sure the wire is not damaged during install. Its a good idea to check the resistance of the wire periodicly just to make sure you dont nick it some where.



On the self-leveling, it can be tricky. To be honest, if its more than an area of 200 sq ft, I would hire it out. They actually have a pump truck, will come in, prep it, and pour it very quickly, and usually costs under 3 bucks a sq ft, and they garrantee it. I do most my own pours, as most of my stuff is smaller areas than that, but 200 gets to be the limit I can handle. Also, you almost have to have 2 people to do the leveling. One guy pouring and leveling it out with some type of spreader while the other mixes. You gotta work pretty fast as it sets up quickly. Also, follow the directions exactly for mixing and water content, you will be hating life if you don't. I use a dethatching rake for my leveling tool. I coated the blades on it with that rubber coating for tool handles so it wouldnt damage the wire. Basicly, you mix it, pour it, and then move the material around with the rake. I wear football cleats so that I can walk around the room and not have my feet stick to the floor, and also it doesnt mess up the leveling process. After I have the entire floor poured, and moved the material around so that there is no bare spots, I walk around with the rake, and move it up and down on the surface, going back and forth across the room until the entire surface has been aggitated.



On the prep side, here are a few tips. Along the walls, get a roll of sill seal, its a thin foam that is on a roll and is used to seal walls to foundations. This stuff works great for keeping the leveling material from seaping under the walls into adjacent rooms. You lay it flat agaisnt the wall, and tight to the floor. Just staple it to the sheet rock to hold it there. In door ways that lead out side of the tiled area, cut a piece of 2x2 pine and screw it to the floor, make sure that the edge is the center of the door, not the door way. You dont want your tile past the door, as when you shut the door you dont want to see the flooring outside the room. Take Greatstuff foam and put a small bead along the board you put in the door ways to again keep the leveling material from seeping out. Tape any cracks in the floor with tape, most guys use duct tape. This will keep the leveling material from going through the floor boards. If on a cement floor, some cement sealent in the cracks might not be bad idea, because who knows how deep those cracks are. If not filled, your floor might look great, but 2 hours later, you might end up with low spots where the cracks are as it can suck it down. If there is a toilet in the tiled area, make a dam out of Greatstuff on top of the toilet flange, but not over the drain hole. After the leveling material sets, you just break the foam out, works very well. Also, before you pour, make sure you prep the plywood with a leveling primer, this will make it tacky, and suspend any dust that you didnt get cleaned off prior.



So, the order of details,



1. ) Clean the sub floor and brace any lose joints. If the subfloor is not tongue and groove plywood, your going to have to install another layer of plywood, even if its only 3/8" thick. The subfloor plywood should be no less than 5/8" thick.

2. ) Self level primer

3. ) Tape all seems in the plywood

4. ) Floor prep, block door ways, walls, floor vents, toilet flanges, any hole in the floor.

5. ) Map out your wire and install your wire clips.

6. ) Install your thermostat according to directions

7. ) Staple down a plastic or fiberglass mesh over the entire floor, be careful not to staple any wires. (this is only required for flooring over plywood, cement floors do not require this step)

8. ) figure out how much material and water you need, and have it all ready and close by. Most self leveling materials require a minimum floor thickness of 1-1/4". So, if your sub flooring is 3/4" TG plywood, your self level should be a minimum of 1/2" thick.

9. ) Mix material with a 1/2" HD drill, dont try anything less or you will kill it, trust me. The drill should be less than 500 RPMs (IIRC)

10. ) pour and level out with rake. Again, I have found that the plunging motion over the entire floor on the last sweep works wonders and really helped with getting the floor perfectly flat.

11. ) remove all the prep materials, and I like to put a coat of the leveling primer on the top of the self leveling material too. Its not really required, but it locks up any lose powder and dust and the thinset seems to stick better to it.
 
Wow,Alpha, great detailed post. I wonder if any manufacturer of the leveling material has produced an instructional video of the process?. In any case,I feel that I could do a test process from your description to test this out.

I bought a house at a sheriffs sale, and I want to tile about 350 Sq Ft of kitchen and bath area. The present floors are a horrible mismatch of differing framing systems over old porches and remodeling scab togethers from the past-- so bad that tearing up the subfloor and sistering joist tops may be the easiest option. The only other option would entail shimming and leveling up roughly and then pouring a leveling system.
 
Good post Alfa,



Remember you are tiling over the leveling compound and you can adjust the tile to set level. To stop leaks or seeping I uses cardboard drywall shims stapled along the wall and make a ring for the toilet flange and just tape it down. I have also leveled in sections and you can come back and correct any problem or low spots.



Be sure to cover the wires completely. I put the wires closer together by the tub or shower where you dry off. Makes a little more heat right where you need it. And don't forget the heated towel bars on a timer. I am good at spending other peoples money.



Cary:cool:
 
cnc, be careful with installing the wires with different spacing, it can cause hot spots and damage the wire if the customer turned it up. If its 85* where the thermostat is and the wires are 3" apart, and they are 2" apart by the tub, it could end up getting alot hotter there.



I would say, this though, from experiance, NEVER let the wires get to far apart by the tub :( messed that up once, luckly suntouch sent me some extra wire and I was able to extend the wire 4' and stay with in spec of the wire ohm rating, and was able to repair the floor without much trouble, but it did suck. It was the end of the wire and figured that last run being 3" apart vrs 2. 5" was no big deal... man was I wrong, ended up with a cold spot by the tub. Plus, it didnt help that the air and surface temps under the tub (accessable from the mechanical room) were 15-20* cooler than the room temp, so the tub was radiating cold into the floor as well.



Anyway, personally, I will never do another install exceeding 2. 5" between the wires. And also, make sure you dont install wires under any cabinets or permanate furniture that sits directly on the flow with no air floor, that can damage the wire as well.



Side note, you staying pretty busy Cary? Where abouts you located, I love making friends with other tile setters.



heres a pic of a floor with heated flooring and some of my tile work, it was fun spending this gals money as well!



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Alpa,



I always follow the manufactures spacing requirements. I only put wires were heat is needed. Not at the sides of the toilet, nothing to heat there. I have not had any hot spot yet. I use an IR temperature gauge to check the floor's heat after it has been on a few hours.



I am a general, but do almost all the work myself. I do set a lot of tile and stone. I just (1 1/2 years) relocated from the San Diego area to Bainbridge Island, WA. Still pretty busy, but it seems to be slowing down. If you talk the economy down it will go down. I think once the election is over it will come back. :rolleyes:



Cary:cool:
 
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