How to keep my rig under GVWR towing this?

[Patriot_RAM]

Hey Guys,

I'm buying a Case 580B hoe and have a couple of questions about hauling the thing. This would only be occasional, and non-commercial farm/personal use. The weight on the hoe's vary depending on the options, but the machine itself should be somewhere betweek 9,000 and 13,000 lbs.

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I have a 2004 2500 which has a GVWR of 9000 and tires rated at 3,195. Front GAWR is 5,200 and rear is 6,000. Safety hardware such as trailer brakes, adequate class hitch, tire ratings, axle ratings, etc aside in this conversation, my question is in regards only to safe weight distribution.

The truck with me and random crap in it weighed in on the scrap metal scale a while back at around 8,500 lbs. I have the Kore DRC Race suspension, Road Armor front & rear, Transfer Flow, winch, line-x, some aftermarket audio, and so on that bring the weight up. So, if I eliminate some random stuff, I can probably get the weight down to about 8,000.

Here's the truck: (I swear there's a boat trailer behind it... )
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Unless I go on a diet, that leaves me with 1,000lb to work with for a pin or tongue weight. I'm looking at some different trailer types and am trying to determine if there's a safe combination of axle position / hitch weight that I can get to and be able to haul this thing. The GCWR is no concern because it will be under 26k lbs, and I will only be transporting this in Arkansas.

Is there a type of gooseneck, bulldog, or pintle trailer that I can distribute the weight of this hoe to where there is only a half ton on the truck itself? The truck is heavy, and very stable with the suspension and shocks I have. I'm sure axle position will play a roll as well.

What do you gents think the best way to accomplish this is?

Thanks!

Patriot_RAM

 

[Patriot_RAM]

I've also read on quite a few forums that the GVWR is also a manufacturer recommendation and that it's typically ignored by most DOT and that the DOT goes by tire rating and are very strict on that.

Any truth to this?

Thanks!

 

[NIsaacs]

The question is, safe weight distribution... . so I am assuming you want to stay at truck GVWR, the thread topic.



Check thread topic, "Know your trailer weights" it has some good pictures and discuss's weight placement.



A good 25' gooseneck rated at least 14,000 GVW would be the best. It is long enough to adjust your load forward or back to get the pin weight where you want it. Empty trailer pin weight will be about 5-6 hundred pounds so your truck, as it sits now, will be loaded to max GVWR. Empty trailer axles will weigh about 4500# so if the backhoe weighs 11,000# you will now be 1500# over on the trailer axles. So, you need to bite the bullet and put more weight on the truck or get a bigger trailer. Maybe 16,000-20,000 lb GVW or maybe the backhoe is more like 9500#, then you would be fine.



Nick

 

[Patriot_RAM]

What are the drawbacks about being slightly over the GVWR as long as I'm not over the GAWR and tire weight rating?

So if I have 1,000lb pin weight on a trailer that's loaded to 16,000 lbs, is there any issue with handling, etc? Assume brakes on all axles, etc, etc.

Thanks!

Patriot_RAM

 

[jhenderson]

In my experience , a little extra pin wt with a gooseneck is not a problem. A bigger problem is the wt too far back on the trailer. It makes the trailer tail happy.

 

[NIsaacs]

I routinely haul over my 8800 lb GVW on my '01 2500. My front GAWR is 5200, my rear is 6084 with LT245/75x16 10 ply tires. I run the LT265/75x16 10 ply, rated 3415 per tire. I do try not to go over the tire ratings, I think that is just good sense. I have never had my axles or tires checked for overweight.



My truck empty with all my junk weighs 7500 and takes 3,000 lbs of pin weight to level it, thats my weight gage. A bumper pull will level it with about 1000/1200 lbs.



The more weight that you can haul on the truck the better it handles. A gooseneck is a little more forgiving then a bumper pull.



I recently hauled a load of hay out of Utah and weighed it on a CAT scale. The front axle was 4200, rear 6120, trailer axles 14,600, total of 24,920. The load looked and felt great with that combo mix of weights.



Nick

 

[GAmes]

I can't tell you how many times I have crossed the scales over the GVWR of my pickup. DOT does not know or care what the GVWR is unless they are checking for what class drivers license you need. As long as the tractor is secured properly, the tires are adequate and you are sober you won't have a problem. Since you are not commercial, you shouldn't be concerned about scales, but you should be aware there are LEOs who will pull you over if the rig looks unsafe or you are driving erratically.

 

[BIGNASTY]

When moving to MT I bought a 30' tandem axle tandem wheel goose-neck. Loaded a 28' sea container on it (8k to 8. 5K ) piled all kinds of house hold goods in it ran thru scales and had not one problem. Even did the same thing when doing the shop and garage( went around scales on those trips) and did it with my 04. 5 2500 Dodge air bags help but I didn't have it all jacked up like your is. I dont know how those handle I've never drove one up that high. But my 2WD did just fine BONE STOCK. I would take the container to Missoula and sell it (paid for the fuel and the container) and drive back to CA and buy another and do it again moved for FREE. In regards to your question about overloading your pin. I dont think that a little is to bad but if you think about it the bottom line is that the WHEEL BEARINGS in the rear end are taking the load and that is what I looked at the frame of the truck and the suspension ( AIR BAG) COULD TAKE IT but the Wheel bearing ultimately take the I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER. JMO

 

[zzman]

I use to have a 580C I pulled with a 3 axle single wheel trailer. But it had a cab on it.

I found it rode best with the backhoes back wheels on the center axle and the boom down on the dove tail.

Never weighed it tho.



Now I haul them from time to time with my dual tamdem 40'. I put the back wheel over the rear axle with the boom down.

Be sure to chain down the boom too, I think the law may require that.

 

[tuffs93]

I used to pull a triple axle trailer to move my 580 from Az to NM. About 5 years ago after dropping off the backhoe in NM , I got stopped in southern AZ by DPS heavy truck enforcment. Empty trailer. He did a inspection on me and told me I did'nt have a CDL. I told him that I did'nt need one because the truck had a GVW of 9000 and the trailer had a GVW of 16000. That kept me under 26000. He said that all triple axle trailers with 8 hole wheels were good for 21000. I did'nt argue with him and he wrote me for no CDL. 310. 00 fine. Since then I have gotten rid of the triple axle and bought a heavy double axle with 17. 5 wheels and load range G tires on it. It handles the 580 O. K. and DOT dos'ent even look at it when you go by. I keep the main part of the weight centered over the axles and it gives me about 1200 pin weight.

 

[Mark31]

Tuffs, I think you pretty well hit the nail square on the head. With my tractor, loader, grapple, blade, on my 23 ft gn, I weigh 23600. Now the bad part: I'm over loaded by 130 lbs on each "E" trailer tire if I load where I like it. I don't like as much weight on the truck as Nick, judging by his pics. If I had to load with that much on the truck, I would want some airbags to bring me back up to almost level. I once got into a red cone chicane on Interstate too fast and had to do some good zig-zag, and everything felt super solid---no squiggle. I tried to find my Flyin J weight ticket to show what was on each axle, but it has evaporated! Going over the rated load on an "E" tire is going to be the easiest way to not be in spec. I think with a 16 k gn trailer with 17. 5 tires, Patriot Ram will be a happy camper. Mark

 

[GAmes]

tuffs, I agree you can't argue with the man that has a gun and a badge, but you got screwed. If the VIN tag listed 16,000 that is the weight that has to be used for CDL determination. Harvey might have the link, but the reg states GVWR or actual weight. Water under the bridge. . I know. Here is the kicker. If he allowed you to proceed after writing the ticket he knew that you were legal. In every case where there was a legitimate case of being over GCWR that I know of, the trailer had to be dropped and a CDL driver was required to take it on down the road.

 

[rwitt]

Here's my old 02 I sold my brother in-law who has a ranch up in Northern Calif. Backhoe is 14k+ and trailer is 7k+ according to him. Trailer is 24k GVWR tilt bed.

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Backhoe rear tires are ahead of centerline between the trailer axles. This was taken at Eagle Lake by Susanville Ca. It was about a 70 mile pull to Eagle Lake from his ranch. If you've ever been through there, you know there's some steep grades in that area. Under trucks GVWR? No way.

 

[tuffs93]

GAmes, yea, I kinda figured that after the fact but then talking to other guys around the area with tandem duels and other triple axles they were getting stopped and read the same riot act. That when I sold the triple and just bought a heavy double axle. Have'nt been stopped or even looked at since. Forgot to mention, I bought a 04 SRW after my duelly got mis-placed last year. Put air bags and Rickson wheels and G rated tires on it. Handles the load just fine.

 

[NIsaacs]

GAmes, yea, I kinda figured that after the fact but then talking to other guys around the area with tandem duels and other triple axles they were getting stopped and read the same riot act. That when I sold the triple and just bought a heavy double axle. Have'nt been stopped or even looked at since. Forgot to mention, I bought a 04 SRW after my duelly got mis-placed last year. Put air bags and Rickson wheels and G rated tires on it. Handles the load just fine.

I have heard the same thing, that the tandem duallys were being forced to licence as commercial. With two 10,000 lb axles plus the tow truck it adds up to over 26,000.



I bought a new 14,000 lb GVW trailer and added the 8k axles and 17. 5 commercial tires and wheels. I have the pickup licensed for 16,000 and the trailer for 10,000. This gives me 26,000. I was in the Sanders POE last winter for a commercial oversize load permit and they assured me I was ok for a normal load, however I think I could be forced to license the trailer for 14,000, it's GVWR.



In AZ, anytime you license a trailer for over 10K you license for 10,001 and pay for the overage on the tow truck. For me that would be 26,000 on the pickup, way more expensive then the way it is now.



Nick

 

[Mark31]

rwitt, I got a good laugh at that John Deere 310. A "dood" nearby bought a 310 and the first time he tried to load it on his trailer, Big Yaller "ruint" it. He eventually hauled it on triple axle pulled by a C50 Chev. A 310 is a professional grade trailer squasher, ramp warper, and tire buster! Mark

 

[Mark31]

Patriot Ram, I've been thinking about this whole truck, trailer, hoe combo. First, I would weigh that backhoe. Then I would find a builder that could/would build an appropiate gn with 17. 5 tires that would rate it at 16990. If the builder can't build a trailer light enough to keep you under that 25900 loaded total, then that is going to open up a whole brand new can of worms.

 

[Patriot_RAM]

After busting the math several different ways, I figured out that this load probably wouldn't go over 26,000 as long as I got all the accumulated crap out of my truck and left the 50 gallon transfer flow empty for this trip.



I went and picked up the machine yesterday. I ended up borrowing a 14k 25' Gooseneck.



I knew I would exceed the truck's GVWR by some amount, but wanted to keep the axles close, trailer under, and all tires under.



Here's a pic of it loaded:

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And here's the CAT scale ticket:

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I was 2600 over on the truck GVWR, and the trailer was under by 700 pounds. I was over on my truck axles by about 200 pounds each, but was within tire capacity on all axles. Overall, this load grossed at 24,880.



One would ASSUME that a 14k trailer would have brakes, and I probably should have asked... . That's another story. When I went to pick the trailer up, I found that it had two brake axles, but no wiring back to them. It was a slow and careful drive through the Ozark mountains! Overall, it hauled and handled very well.



I appreciate the advice!

 

[GAmes]

If the tractor was positioned a little aft of that I think your weights would have been closer to the published limits. I'm not sure I would have attempted it without trailer brakes. Glad to see the mission was accomplshed though.

 

[Mark31]

Patriot, I'm curious: Do you remember the brand and capacity of those trailer tires? That load would have had my Firestones (3195 lb max) over by 440 pounds, 110 per tire. Thanks! Mark