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Hydrogen Generator for trucks

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B100 in the Bronx, NY

which type of oil

I'm far more interested in the routine daily/weekly/monthly maintenance and expenses on the better made units - sure, you can make them outta Mason jars and Tupperware - but jeeze, that's real shadetree stuff - not likely to be as efficient OR durable/reliable and lengthy in lifespan as something specifically designed and produced for this function - with all reasonable controls and safeguards included...



In computers, it's always been "garbage in, garbage out" - in these systems, it might be "Junk in, junk out"... Before forming premature opinions on this "technology" - at least form opinions based upon something reasonably engineered and manufactured - not from stuff dug out of canning closets and junk piles...
 
But Gary I AM Shade Tree. :)



I'm Running this stuff and it works great on my Gasser. When I get a good setup for my electrodes I have a 4" Stainless enclosure to put it in. Plastic blowup is much safer at this point. :)
 
But Gary I AM Shade Tree.



HEY - you and me BOTH! :-laf



Under normal conditions, "shadetree" is great - I just hate to see final deductions and opinions formed on so... *limited* components and engineering in this particular issue... ;)
 
If it wasn't for the heavy handed influence of the oil companies, we would probably be able to buy factory made water cars today. This technology has certainly been around for many decades but has been suppressed and anyone who advocated it has been ridiculed. There has even been people who have lost their lives over tryin to implement it. Now that the price of energy is so high I think we will be seeing many new inovations come to the surface that will change our thoughts on how to get from one place to another, but the car manufacturers will have to build engines that can handle them. Engines with parts that will withstand the water that is produced when hydorgen burns for instance.
 
I was reading an article in the latest TDR mag about fuel economy improvement methods, and one comment caught my eye - it was about the effects of timing on improving MPG. It pointed out that merely advancing OEM base timing by about 2 degrees would provide an average 2 MPG or so MPG improvement and ALSO pointed out that the reason it was set the way it is from the factory is because of the EPA and emissions requirements.



Some have quoted the reasoning that "IF there was a WAY to easily improve a vehicles MPG, SURELY the manufacturers would be all OVER it, and get it into the hands of buyers as a means to sell more vehicles".



Not necessarily so! ;)



There are MANY conflicting factors involved behind the scenes where alternative energy and improved MPG is concerned - just IMAGINE, if overnight, a method was found using plain water, that would significantly improve MPG, or nearly eliminate world -wide, the need for conventional fossil or vegetable fuels!



Our entire economy - and the economies of the world would be impacted - and in ways not clearly seen - or purely beneficial to the governments and major income generators within those countries!



What happens to our own road taxes and related fuel-based income, if we suddenly were able to power our vehicles with tap water? What radical changes would that demand of vehicle makers to produce both the necessarily modified powerplants and HHO generating systems? What happens to the sprawling network of conventional fuel refining, distribution and service stations? What happens to entire nations, such as those in the middle east, whose ONLY resource is crude oil? Think of the impact on MANY fronts of the stock market.



Sure, on the surface, switching from oil to water for vehicle fuels and heating - both in homes and industry seems like a "win" situation - and actually IS for the *people* of the world - but it has potential impact that FAR exceeds just fuel for cars and trucks - and will NEVER be welcomed or promoted on a wide scale - far too many peripheral issues, and individuals in high places with MUCH to lose.



If it happens, it will only happen as, and after, those same folks are able to put in place methods and controls that keep THEM in places of influence, and at the end of the $$$ flow... Regardless of WHAT it takes to make it happen!



You think they don't read, and have forms of input in as many places as possible where discussions like this are taking place? NO, not necessarily talking "conspiracy theories" - just pointing out there IS a downside to a radical and uncontrolled switch in basic energy sources - and that downside will NOT be welcome by the powerful and wealthy in many smoky back rooms across the world - UNTIL those involved establish ways they can benefit and control it! ;)



Do an Internet search on "HHO generators" - and see what you dig up! ;)
 
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but the car manufacturers will have to build engines that can handle them. Engines with parts that will withstand the water that is produced when hydorgen burns for instance.



I've heard the Wankle rotary is well suited for hydrogen. :)
 
I was reading an article in the latest TDR mag about fuel economy improvement methods, and one comment caught my eye - it was about the effects of timing on improving MPG. It pointed out that merely advancing OEM base timing by about 2 degrees would provide an average 2 MPG or so MPG improvement and ALSO pointed out that the reason it was set the way it is from the factory is because of the EPA and emissions requirements.



Some have quoted the reasoning that "IF there was a WAY to easily improve a vehicles MPG, SURELY the manufacturers would be all OVER it, and get it into the hands of buyers as a means to sell more vehicles".



Not necessarily so! ;)



There are MANY conflicting factors involved behind the scenes where alternative energy and improved MPG is concerned - just IMAGINE, if overnight, a method was found using plain water, that would significantly improve MPG, or nearly eliminate world -wide, the need for conventional fossil or vegetable fuels!



Our entire economy - and the economies of the world would be impacted - and in ways not clearly seen - or purely beneficial to the governments and major income generators within those countries!



What happens to our own road taxes and related fuel-based income, if we suddenly were able to power our vehicles with tap water? What radical changes would that demand of vehicle makers to produce both the necessarily modified powerplants and HHO generating systems? What happens to the sprawling network of conventional fuel refining, distribution and service stations? What happens to entire nations, such as those in the middle east, whose ONLY resource is crude oil? Think of the impact on MANY fronts of the stock market.



Sure, on the surface, switching from oil to water for vehicle fuels and heating - both in homes and industry seems like a "win" situation - and actually IS for the *people* of the world - but it has potential impact that FAR exceeds just fuel for cars and trucks - and will NEVER be welcomed or promoted on a wide scale - far too many peripheral issues, and individuals in high places with MUCH to lose.



If it happens, it will only happen as, and after, those same folks are able to put in place methods and controls that keep THEM in places of influence, and at the end of the $$$ flow... Regardless of WHAT it takes to make it happen!



You think they don't read, and have forms of input in as many places as possible where discussions like this are taking place? NO, not necessarily talking "conspiracy theories" - just pointing out there IS a downside to a radical and uncontrolled switch in basic energy sources - and that downside will NOT be welcome by the powerful and wealthy in many smoky back rooms across the world - UNTIL those involved establish ways they can benefit and control it! ;)



Do an Internet search on "HHO generators" - and see what you dig up! ;)



;);););););)
 
Do an Internet search on "HHO generators" - and see what you dig up!

Do a search on "water electrolysis" and ignore any hits with "HHO" - and see what you dig up !

You'll learn that it's been around since the early 1800's. That there were Model T's converted to run hydrogen. That there are hundreds of commercial plants operating water electrolyzers to generate H2 for point of use applications. That oil refineries are already one of the biggest producers of H2 (and not by electrolysis). That smart people don't mix stoichiometric quantities of H2 and O2 until the point of combustion. That it requires more energy to make it than it produces, and that it is not environmentally friendly unless it comes from renewable energy.
 
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Seems to make sence that 2-3 LPM could enhance fuel economy. Here is a 100% Hydrogen Cobra that was interesting to read about-

New Page 1



Unfortunately, the Cobra was not generating it's own HHO - but rather, running off a storage tank of HHO that had been previously pressurized externally...



Seems to be lots of extra engine technology and materials needed to run straight HHO, as opposed to smaller percentages...
 
So Chrysler, GM, and Ford are allowing themselves to go bankrupt, but out of respect/fear/servitude ??? to the oil companies, they would not dare even think of using such an "HHO" device?

Does that make economic sense, even if the big3 are majority owned by exxon and rockefellers, to commit corporate suicide, rather than introduce such an invention? Com' on folks!



Here's an excerpt that shows the shady marketing used by these guys: The company has also changed its return policy from a 60-day money back guarantee to a 30-day money back guarantee. The Hydro 4000, according to Havanich, is supposed to take 30 days to get up and running at optimum performance

If it works, why not go to a 90 day money back?:confused: Could it be that the returns were more than new sales?
 
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It's not just the marketers. Even the 'not for profit' organization sponsoring the 242 page 'report' on the wonderfulness of hydroxy booster technology open there main page with the statements -



---



Panacea is a registered non-profit organisation, dedicated to educational study and research. All copyrights belong to their owners and are acknowledged. All material presented on this web site is either news reporting or information presented for non-profit study and research, or has previously been publicly disclosed or has implicitly or explicitly been put into the public domain. Fair Use applies.





DISCLAIMER:

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION PRESENTED ON THIS WEB SITE IS INTENDED FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY.

PANACEA ASSUMES NO LIABILITY SHOULD YOU DECIDE TO PERFORM ANY EXPERIMENTS AND/OR CONSTRUCT ANY DEVICE PRESENTED ON THIS WEB SITE. ANY REPLICATION BASED ON THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS IS SOLELY YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. PANACEA, THE COMPANY HOSTING THIS WEB SITE, AND/OR THE SITE DESIGNER ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS RESULTING IN LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY DESCRIPTION, SHOULD ANY OCCUR AS A RESULT OF THE USE OF THIS WEB SITE.
 
So Chrysler, GM, and Ford are allowing themselves to go bankrupt, but out of respect/fear/servitude ??? to the oil companies, they would not dare even think of using such an "HHO" device?

Does that make economic sense, even if the big3 are majority owned by exxon and rockefellers, to commit corporate suicide, rather than introduce such an invention? Common folks!
After doing some researching I think there is more to it.

The Hydroxy generator's out there that are capable of a real world 15-20% increase can be dangerous devises. There is a huge liability there. A simple backfire can cause an underhood explosion sending broken parts everywhere.

Plus you have to feed these. . many add water at every fill up and who wants to do that for a little over 2 mpg gain.



I don't doubt they work or you wouldn't have 1000's of people in different countries making them in there garage. One site that sells a generator and also helps to bring the idea back to a more "real world" level is this one:

WATERFUEL FOR ALL Booster

They even have their own forums to let everyone in to discuss its real world effectiveness.



edit On the flip side you have this challenge:

The one million dollar HHO challenge that has gone after the 26% and more improvement crowd to weed out all the hype sellers, actually a good idea and should in no way prove the 15-20% makers are gimmicks too.
 
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Don't forget that all HHO installers fool around with the O2 sensor on gassers. That has an influence on mpg.



Ok, back to our diesel, at 2000 rpm, it "swallows" (but does not burn all of it) 3 liter/rev, or 6000 L/min air. An HHO generates, on a good day, 2 L/min, or 0. 3% of the air volume, or 3 parts per thousand, by volume.

Oxygen is typically 21% , so the extra 0. 1% added by the HHO, how much can it really benefit? And the H2 gas, at 0. 2% of air volume...

Also, they pass it thru a water "bubbler", so some of that HHO goes right back to water, some to hydrogen peroxide, and some H2 molecules bubble their way up, as well as a smaller amount of O2 molecules. A lot of the gas being ingested is water vapor, or it quickly condenses back to water vapor on the upstroke of compression...

I know about studies, but I would think you need more than 0. 2% H2 molecules to see any benefit, and the 0. 1% extra oxygen is worthless, as the air already contains ~21% +/-.

There is an SAE study (you have to pay for it), so I don't know at what percentage of H2 you begin to measure an efficiency improvement.



I think the reality is this:



All people out there right now are constantly futsing with the electrodes, boiling the water, etc, and all the results I have seen posted, such as one F350 going from 10 to 14 mpg, are so shaky, that, it was due to a dirty, misfiring engine, and when the guy leaned out the O2 sensor (he did) and added the water vapor injection (that's all these amount to, once they start to boil) it cleaned up the carbon, and got him 14 mpg. Woo-hoo, proof for 40% improvement??



Show me a long term.....
 
I did the math a while back on a Q-5 Brick from one of the suppliers mentioned in these discussions. The Q-5 was the biggest one they offer.



Air contains 0. 00005% H2 by volume. At 2000 rpm (and no boost), a Q-5 brick will double that volume to 0. 0001%. Still nothing. The added miniscule of O2 (1/2 the volume of the H2) has no value as there is already an excess present in the cylinders.



Water electrolysis produces a few cats and dogs, particularly with electrode materials other than platinum or noble metal oxides. Hydroxyl radicals, ozone and peroxides in particular. The radicals and peroxides will mostly stay in the electrolyzer where they will attack components and/or decompose due to high temperatures. A small portion may carry forward as entrained liquid in the gas. The ozone, O3, on the other hand will leave the cell with the H2 and O2 gases. While this is not necessarily detrimental to engine life, it will cause some oxidation to the organic materials (plastics, elastomers, etc) it contacts on the way there.
 
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Show me a long term.....



Been there - done that - wouldn't make a BIT of difference to you, or those LIKE you!



I wouldn't waste my time trying! :-laf



I could drive one around the world, get a documented 20% MPG improvement - and then RUN OVER you with the vehicle, and you'd STILL deny it worked - or that the vehicle even existed...



YUP - been there - DONE that!



Some folks get their experience from actually testing and USING the stuff discussed - while others get their "experience" from a book in the comfort of their easy chair - guess which ones *I* believe... :)
 
Gary, I wish you would quit saying that WE are the ones with closed minds, your the one that WILL NOT CHANGE YOUR MIND. All you have is some " my brothers wifes aunt did it and gets better mpg" Still have not seen anything that Shows before and after for more that one or two tanks.

You could swear that you flaped your arms and flew, but I would know better.
 
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